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I am becoming more disillusioned by the "prolife" movement.
They are always screaming about the woman being responsible. Why don't they ever take the man into consideration? Why doesn't HE think about it BEFORE sticking it into her if he KNOWS a woman can terminate her pregnancy?
A woman knows she can terminate the pregnancy. A man knows that he cannot terminate the pregnancy (unless he beats or something) so any SMART men would THINK before sticking in her instead of whining later on that she wants or does not want the pregnancy after.
ZERO rights for men and ZERO sympathy for men from me on this subject.
Fair enough, I think that any man who leaves or beats on the woman after she is pregnant is a piece of garbage.
No one is saying a woman can't do with her body as she wills. If she wants an abortion, then she has that right.
What some of us are fighting for, is a Mans choice to do with his body what he wants.
The "before he has sex with a woman" argument is mute, because the woman gets the exact same choice.
Here it is.
Man gets to choose to have sex = Woman gets to choose to have sex
Man gets to choose to wear protection = Women get to tell him he has to wear protection, or use their own kind.
Now heres where things are unequal
Women get to choose to abort, adopt, or take a mourning after pill
Men, we get nothing the day after. We can ask for an abortion, we can ask for an adoption, we can ask that she take a mourning after pill, but the fact is, at that point, she has all the power. Even if the man expresses no interest, none whatsoever in being a Dad, he is still forced to pay child support on an unequal choice.
What we are saying, is that if the woman knows upfront that the man wants nothing to do with the child, and will not pay child support, then she has options. She can buckle down and raise the child herself, or she can abort, or she can put the child up for adoption, or she can ask for help from relatives.
The man gets none of those choices. Thats unequal rights.
When people keep saying a man has the choice who to sleep with, thats just silly. You make it sound like we are the only responsible party, and the woman has no choice in who she sleeps with.
With equal rights, comes equal responsibility. Women wanted equal rights, now they should step up and have the equal responsibility.
Perfectly stated!...and lets not forget, that we dont wish to 'share' power nor 'take' power from anyone. A woman has all of the power to decide whether she wants a child and what role she wants to take in having a child. She has that power, and that is her right to 100% retain that power.
We only argue that men have their own individual power to make their own autonomous decision, fully independent of his partner's influence, after conception.
No one has been able to display how that is an unequal request yet. They will use the same old anectdotal arguments of why a woman's biology should allow her control over her body, yet that same biological respect is not given to men. They will state that men should have not had sex or used protection, yet that is not what we tell women who choose to abort their responsibility or place it up for adoption.
All of these are double standards, and would inspire an upheaval from equal rights protesters if the same arguments were used to justify the removal of certain individual rights from women. It is a request for society to apply a totally different standard for mothers due to biology that they apply to fathers.
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 Now heres where things are unequal
Women get to choose to abort, adopt, or take a mourning after pill
Women wanted equal rights, now they should step up and have the equal responsibility.
You mean equal 'irresponsibility'?
Because when women 'choose' to abort, they are the ones who end up paying $300-$400, taking time off work, going to the clinic, enduring the procedure, and coping with all the effects this process has, which can take a whole month to an entire lifetime. The man doesn't have to do anything. How are those 'equal rights'?
Perfectly stated!...and lets not forget, that we dont wish to 'share' power nor 'take' power from anyone. A woman has all of the power to decide whether she wants a child and what role she wants to take in having a child. She has that power, and that is her right to 100% retain that power.
We only argue that men have their own individual power to make their own autonomous decision, fully independent of his partner's influence, after conception.
No one has been able to display how that is an unequal request yet. They will use the same old anectdotal arguments of why a woman's biology should allow her control over her body, yet that same biological respect is not given to men. They will state that men should have not had sex or used protection, yet that is not what we tell women who choose to abort their responsibility or place it up for adoption.
All of these are double standards, and would inspire an upheaval from equal rights protesters if the same arguments were used to justify the removal of certain individual rights from women. It is a request for society to apply a totally different standard for mothers due to biology that they apply to fathers.
It's completely unequal because:
The desired outcome is always the same for men in this argument. They get out -- they have no responsibility. The woman has choices, yes, and each one involves HER dealing with something, or having to go through something. And none of them are pleasant. But men don't have to do anything? Just because of the abortion option?
Which is another reason this is unequal and will never be equal. Women menstruate. No choice in that. No way to make this about being fair or equal to anyone except the child.
It's completely unequal because:
The desired outcome is always the same for men in this argument. They get out -- they have no responsibility. The woman has choices, yes, and each one involves HER dealing with something, or having to go through something. And none of them are pleasant. But men don't have to do anything? Just because of the abortion option?
Which is another reason this is unequal and will never be equal. Women menstruate. No choice in that. No way to make this about being fair or equal to anyone except the child.
How is the outcome always the same for men? Just as some women choose to abort their child and others choose to keep it, some men will opt to take care of their child and some wont.
Menstruation is not the problem. Thats a bit like me saying that 'Men ejaculate.' Sure they do, but that doesnt excuse the fact that they willingly choose when and with whom they have sex, or whether they will have it at all. It seems if a woman cannot help getting pregnant from sex, and men cant help impregnating a woman from sex, then obviously the two would meet halfway in determining equal parental rights.
The woman gets the exact same choice. If she chooses not to have sex, she won't get pregnant.
So that choice is equaled out by a womans choice. However, a womans choice to have an abortion, isn't equalled out by men. Please don't bring the "men should have a choice in abortion" thing up, as its a womans body, her choice.
What we seek, is an equal decision. Is it not my body to work 10 hours a week for a child I may not have wanted anything to do with? If I made that plain and known to her up front?
(before a personal attack starts, I have a child, he lives with me, and I take care of him)
Of course I'm going to bring up that men shouldn't have a say unless they carry the parasite in their body.
You don't get a decision in another person's decisions about their body.
What do you want, slavery?
When you carry a fetus, you get a say.
I don't care what you have, that's absolutely irrelevant.
A woman's body, her choice.
Don't like the odds, don't play the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough
As usual this issue has wondered off course, I believe.
Lets seperate the issue.
1. Within marriage
2.Outside marriage.
1. I'll add my 2cents. When 2 people get married the ring is a symbol of the 2 becoming 1, hence the ring has no beginning, has no end. All decisions should be by consent from both parties.
When they engage in sex, it is with the understanding that each partner will uphold whatever "responsible" for the outcome without any demands on the other.
The biological processes don't know or care about your marital status.
A ring is a piece of jewelry.
Duh.
Don't know much about rape in marriage, do you?
Ive stated this exact thing multiple times on this forum. And inevitably it returns right back to the circular argument that, "Well Life isnt fair!" -- and "Well he could have chose not to have sex and impregnate her!"...yet no one discounts a woman's "choice" to remove her responsibility to her child by aborting it by saying "Well she could have chosen not to have sex and become pregnant." ..all of a sudden her body is paramount. However what a father chooses to do with his body AFTER conception is irrelevant.
This is a result of two things. Selective reasoning when applying rules of equality. And the ongoing attempt to portray men as villans and women as victims. As long as society lets women view conception/pregnancy as something that men DO TO women, equal rights will never be achieved. But make no mistake about it, not all mothers or women want equal rights. Many just want the right to determine which consequences of their actions they will accept and which ones they wont. While simultaneously declaring that since their contribution to conception and chidbirth is the birthing of children, then their personal rights, post conception should be given more leeway than mens personal rights post conception.. Great thread!
Who's doing that.
It's biology. You don't agree with biology?
Tough, isn't it.
A woman's body, a woman's choice.
It's the biological way.
Who's doing that.
It's biology. You don't agree with biology?
Tough, isn't it.
A woman's body, a woman's choice.
It's the biological way.
Of course its the biological way. AGAIN, Im not saying that men should have any say over what women do with their bodies.
We are saying that men should have their own individual choice to accept or refuse responsibility for an unwanted child.
That does nothing to a woman's body, nor her rights. She still has every right she had before.
By the way, I completely agree with biology. Thats my whole argument. Just as women are responsible for what they choose to do with their body after conception because they are the biological childbearers.. Biologically men arent obligated to care for offspring they dont want either. In nature, males arent forced by others to care for his/her child. That is only a double standard in our social/judicial construct, but it is not a biological function of males. And with the growing support of good people such as the OP, we can all continue to strive for equality for parental rights in our society one day.
We are saying that men should have their own individual choice to accept or refuse responsibility for an unwanted child.
That does nothing to a woman's body, nor her rights. She still has every right she had before.
Men have their own individual choice to accept or refuse responsibility for an unwanted child. It's called contraception.
I'd have more sympathy for the men's voice in responsibility if most men didn't ditch women after she got pregnant. In most cases, you couldn't find the father for child support. Single mothers also makes 60% of a bachelor male, with the additional burden of a child.
There is already equality in custodial rights. If a woman is deemed unfit to raise a child, the custody goes the father, and vice versa.
"To the Hot Guy at Priest Lake on the 4th of July - w4m Date: 2009-07-24, 1:17AM CDT
I have some interesting news. You are going to be a father, twice. I don't remember your name but I do remember your license plate number. I really hope you see this. You promised me that you would pull out, and clearly you didn't. You had brown hair and brown eyes, and had a very specific tattoo. My parents have kicked me out of the house, and I'm not making enough working at Waffle House. I was hoping that you could help me out. My car's not big enough for the three of us. If you are enough of a man to be responsible for your actions, contact me."
Then you get abominations like those on the Maury Povich Show where the guy sleeps around and not have to take care of the child. Again, the guy has it easy.
Want to have sex but don't want to get the women pregnant and deal with the aftermath of child support payment or custodial rights? Be prepared, this prevention saves a lot of hassle.
Okay, this will span several posts but I didn't want to miss anything:
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
Until women can be forced to share the physical and financial ordeal of 18 years of paying for a child they didnt want, the rules we have in place should be discarded. Im not saying women should be forced to have an abortion, nor forced to accept responsibility for a child they do not want. But likewise a man shouldnt have to accept responsibility for an unwanted child either. Unfortunately we have all established that the U.S. is a country that values equal rights, so it is a virtue worth upholding.
Then get sterilized or be protected.
Or, yes, don't have sex with someone unless you're willing to bear the price of your playing.
As has been posted in the numerous threads on this topic, the statistics for men who do not pay child support even when ordered to do so for the state.
If men, in general, were so interested in keeping a woman pregnant, they’d be more than willing to pay for play.
Unfortunately, they’re not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
Very good point. And could you imagine the feminist backlash if people said: "either have the children you conceive, no matter whether you want to take care of it or not. Or Keep your legs closed!"
Feminists would accuse society of oppressing them and forcefully suppressing their right to express themselves sexually/do what they want with their body etc. Yet it is perfectly ok to force a man to do something with his body when a child is the result of his action. Bottom line, its just a double standard.
Poor whiny baby.
When you carry the fetus in your body, you get the say; until then, not so much.
Don’t like it, don’t have sex.
It’s quite simple and you have the control (or not).
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
Well duh...lol..thank you Mr/Mrs. Obvious...We all know what the current state of inequality is for men...But this thread is about equalizing the options for men after conception....
So going forward with the discussion, I completely agree with the OP, and with more people like him, equality may be acheived.
Unless you want the woman to be a slave to you (as apparently you do) it’s not equal.
The point is moot; you continue to beat a dead horse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
Im sure you dont see why people keep thinking that, considering that no one here has said that they should have a say in what a woman does with her body. I havent read where anyone here seeks to have a say in what a woman does with her body..If a woman wants to have an abortion, who are we to tell her that she shouldnt?..thats her choice to make. you are seeing things that no one has said.
A mother's personal rights dont only apply before she has sex, so if equality is our society's objective then why should a man only have personal rights before sex? Whats with the double standard?
BTW, whats with the cursing? Surely you know that curse words are edited out? Not trying to tell you what to do..just curious.
If a man doesn't want to pay the price, he should keep his sperm to himself. That's the only issue here; his issue. Once he deposits his sperm, he's responsible for the result.
Don't like it, don't play.
Cursing? I thought that it was descriptive term for having sex.
Rather you cant make sense of the points I make. If a woman continues an unplanned pregnancy and keeps the child, then through all of her actions, she has shown that she WANTS the child. End of story.
If she doesnt want to bear the financial and physical ordeal of raising a child she didnt want, she can abort the child, or place it in safe haven/adoption, or give it to her partner. Those are her rights, and those are her options. Either way she is provided an outlet for her irresponsible behavior. If a man does not want a child, and has been EQUALLY irresponsible as that same woman, he too should also be able to independently choose to refuse or accept responsibility for that child AFTER it is conceived.
So you’re in favor of forced abortion?
You can’t have that either; for whatever reason, a woman has the right to choose.
You can’t force pregnancy termination, nor can you force a woman to carry a child.
That’s the whole concept of choice.
Your comment gets back to woman as *****.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979
No one is saying a woman can't do with her body as she wills. If she wants an abortion, then she has that right.
What some of us are fighting for, is a Mans choice to do with his body what he wants.
The "before he has sex with a woman" argument is mute, because the woman gets the exact same choice. I believe you meen “moot” – mute is silent.
Here it is.
Man gets to choose to have sex = Woman gets to choose to have sex
Man gets to choose to wear protection = Women get to tell him he has to wear protection, or use their own kind.
Now heres where things are unequal
Women get to choose to abort, adopt, or take a mourning after pill How about morning, no guarantee that anyone is in mourning.
Men, we get nothing the day after. We can ask for an abortion, we can ask for an adoption, we can ask that she take a mourning after pill, but the fact is, at that point, she has all the power. Even if the man expresses no interest, none whatsoever in being a Dad, he is still forced to pay child support on an unequal choice.
What we are saying, is that if the woman knows upfront that the man wants nothing to do with the child, and will not pay child support, then she has options. She can buckle down and raise the child herself, or she can abort, or she can put the child up for adoption, or she can ask for help from relatives.
The man gets none of those choices. Thats unequal rights.
When people keep saying a man has the choice who to sleep with, thats just silly. You make it sound like we are the only responsible party, and the woman has no choice in who she sleeps with.
With equal rights, comes equal responsibility. Women wanted equal rights, now they should step up and have the equal responsibility.
Again, you play, you pay.
Too bad, guys. You know the consequences of your actions.
Tough noogie.
A woman cannot get pregnant without sperm.
You put your sperm into a woman, you know the possible consequences.
A woman doesn’t get pregnant on her own; the sperm is the determining issue.
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