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"This idolization of the German military was a telling manifestation of a growing militarism within an American society which remained remarkably oblivious to the slow strangulation of its citizen-soldier ideal. At the same time, the American military began to glorify a new generation of warrior-leaders by a selective reading of its past. "
"This idolization of the German military was a telling manifestation of a growing militarism within an American society which remained remarkably oblivious to the slow strangulation of its citizen-soldier ideal. At the same time, the American military began to glorify a new generation of warrior-leaders by a selective reading of its past. "
I actually agree with this article. I think alot of it stems from the fact that the German military had a huge influence on modern warfare.
When people think of great armies they think of the German military, the spartans, the Persians of old, and the Romans. There was something about these previous great military powers that was ruthless yet efficient in the art of war.
I also think there is a great amount of respect and admiration for the German solider off WW1 and WW2 because of their disciplined nature. Plus there is just something fascinating to the human mind that for some reason draws us to a dark foreboding evil sorta like the dark side in star wars. Or the storm troopers.
I actually agree with this article. I think alot of it stems from the fact that the German military had a huge influence on modern warfare.
When people think of great armies they think of the German military, the spartans, the Persians of old, and the Romans. There was something about these previous great military powers that was ruthless yet efficient in the art of war.
I also think there is a great amount of respect and admiration for the German solider off WW1 and WW2 because of their disciplined nature. Plus there is just something fascinating to the human mind that for some reason draws us to a dark foreboding evil sorta like the dark side in star wars. Or the storm troopers.
skifan77 !!! ... Your Post Is Well Within The Mark !
Indeed it is most refreshing to read a historically sound post from skifan77 ... and thankfully not one of those pitifully idiotic PC versions from some of our CDF members who ply the back waters of this exceptional forum !
Damn Good Show skifan77 ! Keep Up The Great Work !
Am I missing something? I read the link, which was informative, but within that article I see no discussion of "idolization" of German military practices. Perhaps it is in the audio interview linked at the end?
Read through the whole thing. As a student of history, rather sparse on his ability to differ military ideology with military formation. The formation of having a professional military is for a real reason: to save lives. Professional soldiers are there to be the mainstay fighting force within the US military, to be supported by guard units which are more in line with the origination of the "citizen soldier". Sure, we could keep what we had, and take many times the casualties.. You tell the families thats what you want though.
As far as the lightning war.. again, not an ideology. A blitzkrieg was in place to prevent defensive forces from having a chance to mobilize and entrench. This plan has sucessfully been employed by the US on many occaisions. Those "elusive/illusive victories" the author speaks about are when politics get in the way and limited scope wars are carried out hampering our military formation and planning, ie lightning wars. Crushing large military forces on their own turf within days is something that would otherwise be unheard of. If we were to follow previous military doctrines the wars would be more static and less dynamic, have larger casulty rates, and have less decisive victories along with greater civilian casualties.
If we were to follow previous military doctrines the wars would be more static and less dynamic, have larger casulty rates, and have less decisive victories along with greater civilian casualties.[/quote]
Greater civilian casualties is a given in Iraq and Afghanistan, compared to the military casualties. And the fact that after a decade we are still taking casualties, despite overwhelming intelligence, equipment and firepower, shows we have something wrong.
I've read some analysis in the past regarding the strategic vs. the tactical, and the German army emphasized the tactical, or winning the firefight, whereas the Americans focused more on the strategic, winning the campaign.
Our obsession with fielding the best trained, best equipped and best entertained military in history is similar to the German approach. And we are experiencing the same results as the Germans, where our infinitely superior training and technology is being fought to a draw by illiterate tribesmen lacking an air force, satellite communications, or any other technological advantage that we assume is necessary for our soldiers to fight. Instead, they have cheap but jam-proof weapons, the support (forced or not) of the population, and the home-field advantage. It should be a reality check on people who still support our war in Afghanistan when our alleged ally Pakistan closes the border crossing that 80% of our supplies pass through--to quote Jeff Huber at Pen and Sword, this is akin to Winston Churchill giving the Nazis a few submarines until the Admiralty ship-building program gets underway.
Our willingness to send our soldiers into combat, regardless of how well equipped, when the strategic situation is a complete embarrassment, is an indication of how far from reality we are willing to wander. I am a former US paratrooper and I see nothing in the last ten years that shows America's superior ability to outthink and outfight our foes--given the immense investment we have made in our military and supporting foreign governments, the truth is obscene--we have spent more on our military and our foreign interventions than at any time in our Republic's history, with the most dismal results to show for it.
The Germans solved a problem in military affairs called the instituitionalization of excellence. The problem of guarenteeing that decade after decade that your military has the best commanders, best strategists and best frontline soldiers and quality of all your units is uniformly good. The Germans created basic training and the close order drill to create basic soldiers that were like interchangeable parts. The Germans ended the tradition of always drawing the general officers from the nobility. All prospective officers whether of high or low birth have to pass muster at a military Academy were they learned the military arts and science. The Germans created the General Staff which was charged with studying the performance of the junior officers just out of the Academy and finding the best and most promising commanders to be elevated to the General Staff upon need for a new general officer. For good or evil the US Military has implementated the German style military which did not grow up in a democratic or Free society but an authoritarian one. A real issue for Americans is whether our Military will remake America into a 21st Century Prussia with its shiny boots and slow march.
"This idolization of the German military was a telling manifestation of a growing militarism within an American society which remained remarkably oblivious to the slow strangulation of its citizen-soldier ideal. At the same time, the American military began to glorify a new generation of warrior-leaders by a selective reading of its past. "
If we were to follow previous military doctrines the wars would be more static and less dynamic, have larger casulty rates, and have less decisive victories along with greater civilian casualties.
Greater civilian casualties is a given in Iraq and Afghanistan, compared to the military casualties. And the fact that after a decade we are still taking casualties, despite overwhelming intelligence, equipment and firepower, shows we have something wrong.
I've read some analysis in the past regarding the strategic vs. the tactical, and the German army emphasized the tactical, or winning the firefight, whereas the Americans focused more on the strategic, winning the campaign.
Our obsession with fielding the best trained, best equipped and best entertained military in history is similar to the German approach. And we are experiencing the same results as the Germans, where our infinitely superior training and technology is being fought to a draw by illiterate tribesmen lacking an air force, satellite communications, or any other technological advantage that we assume is necessary for our soldiers to fight. Instead, they have cheap but jam-proof weapons, the support (forced or not) of the population, and the home-field advantage. It should be a reality check on people who still support our war in Afghanistan when our alleged ally Pakistan closes the border crossing that 80% of our supplies pass through--to quote Jeff Huber at Pen and Sword, this is akin to Winston Churchill giving the Nazis a few submarines until the Admiralty ship-building program gets underway.
Our willingness to send our soldiers into combat, regardless of how well equipped, when the strategic situation is a complete embarrassment, is an indication of how far from reality we are willing to wander. I am a former US paratrooper and I see nothing in the last ten years that shows America's superior ability to outthink and outfight our foes--given the immense investment we have made in our military and supporting foreign governments, the truth is obscene--we have spent more on our military and our foreign interventions than at any time in our Republic's history, with the most dismal results to show for it.
I'm failing to understand your statements.
Greater casulties- occupied wartorn countries with an active insurgancy. We could have just leveled the place or relied on poorer trained troops who could fire indiscriminantly, but hey poorly arrived at statistics providde my more ire for the military. We're not fighting a war at this point, we're playing policeman against a group of people who can stop, fire a few times, then fade into the crowd where we cannot (rules/politics/professional attitude) return fire easily.
Germans were both strategic and tactically minded.
Again, another jab using the insurangency. Here in the US we had relatively sedate madmen known as the "DC Snipers". How long did it take to track them down? Multiply that by thousands. Simple concepts like this and the failure of people talking about the topic without the understanding make me more then a bit irate.
If you were indeed a paratrooper then you should have realized long ago (ie: begining of the war) that once US forces stopped fighting a uniformed enemy that casulties were going to continue to mount. We learned that lesson in Vietnam a long time ago. We learn that in any every day police situational training. We learn that any time you tie a hand behind the back of a prize fighter, he ability is drastically reduced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman
The Germans solved a problem in military affairs called the instituitionalization of excellence. The problem of guarenteeing that decade after decade that your military has the best commanders, best strategists and best frontline soldiers and quality of all your units is uniformly good. The Germans created basic training and the close order drill to create basic soldiers that were like interchangeable parts. The Germans ended the tradition of always drawing the general officers from the nobility. All prospective officers whether of high or low birth have to pass muster at a military Academy were they learned the military arts and science. The Germans created the General Staff which was charged with studying the performance of the junior officers just out of the Academy and finding the best and most promising commanders to be elevated to the General Staff upon need for a new general officer. For good or evil the US Military has implementated the German style military which did not grow up in a democratic or Free society but an authoritarian one. A real issue for Americans is whether our Military will remake America into a 21st Century Prussia with its shiny boots and slow march.
US military first and foremost pledges to protect and defend the ideals and ideas within the constitution. Thats the one part that retains the 'citizen soldier' mentality.
I think they're on to something. the vast majority of Americans support the troops even if they disagree with the war. i'm starting to think even if our troops did a repeat of the holocaust, many americans would still idolize them as heroes.
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Your Post Is Well Within The Mark !
