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Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,023,210 times
Reputation: 36027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
No, everyone has the ability to change jobs. Unless you're a slave, which is illegal in this country, everyone can work wherever they like. You're right - people take jobs because they need money, it's available to them or THEY GET HEALTHCARE. I don't care what "they" do with their money. You stated that you worked 70 hours a week - I was asking YOU what you did with your money, since you were complaining that you didn't get healthcare with that job. Still haven't answered - why didn't you buy it yourself?
You might want to step out of YOUR world and into mine. I sacrifice, budget and manage my money so that I can buy healthcare myself, since my employer doesn't offer it. I have plenty of compassion - I just expect people to earn their keep, quit complaining, and stop taking what I've worked hard to earn.
And as for choice, life is ALL about choices. Unless you're a liberal - then nothing is your fault.
Maybe you'd prefer that those folks stay on unemployment or welfare versus accepting a job that barely pays the bills and does not provide insurance.
How does the current health care bill alleviate anyone from responsibility? From my understanding, we ALL must carry health insurance under this bill. It is only those who legitimately cannot afford coverage are the ones that will receive the subsidity not every American.
Because "legitimately cannot afford coverage" doesn't happen in a vacuum. You have analize WHY people can't afford coverage before you start expecting that everybody else pay the bill.
Is there legitimately people who are in situations out of their control who have no other means to obtain health insurance. Sure. That number however isn't 32 million.
We as a society need to change the culture which drives dependancy. Though these bills feel good, and are humanitarian, they aren't what we should be doing create futher dependancy on others to sustain our lives. We need to remember the enviornment which built this country. Self sustaining liberties which provide for the means, not the end. The constitution gives everybody the oppurtunity to be able to put them in a position to afford healthcare, it doesnt however guarantee it.
As a society, we must instill these concepts in our young if we expect our society to continue to develop into a thriving mecca for people all over the world. We have to instill a sense of value and sustainability into our youth and reinforce it in our society.
Its similar to the "ask not what can your country do for you, but what can you do for your country" idea on social development. One has to be able to understand the purpose and importance of self sustainability, and as a society we need to stop engaging in policies which are contrary to this belief.
At least this bill had bipartisan opposition, too bad there weren't a few more Democrats like Rep. Collin Peterson of Minnesota...
Quote:
“The clear consensus was that we needed to reduce the cost of health care — for individuals, families, employers and the government,” and to expand coverage and fix other problems “without destroying the parts of the system that are working,” he said.
“If the bills we voted on (Sunday) had measured up to these standards, I would have supported them, but they did not. In my judgment, while these bills deliver some good things, they miss the mark on the most important things and will not deliver as promised.”
Peterson said the legislation won’t control costs and doesn’t reform Medicare, and it will cover just 37 percent of the uninsured people in his district while covering an average of 68 percent of the uninsured across the country.
“This is very similar to the way the Medicare geographic disparities problem was created back in 1982,” he said. “The geographic payment disparity encourages cost-shifting and rewards low quality (and) high cost health care providers in other states while forcing Minnesota to do more with less.”
In addition, the legislation “will not control costs,” Peterson said, citing Congressional Budget Office estimates that premiums for individuals will increase by 10 percent to 13 percent.
Point fingers? I heard a ton of lies and insults coming from tea party and Republicans party and they were exposed. Yes, EXPOSED, and they still lost the fight, so they're looking very bad at this point. I think the tea party is done, and will disappear. They still dangle some lies, and the loyalists repeat them, but how can you believe anything they say anymore? Did the Dems lie too? I don't know, maybe or maybe not, but as of now only the tea party and Republicans lies have been exposed.
Sounds like your a one party kind of person...
Then you should be happy because thats exactley where this country is going with the Dems bringing us closer to Socialism every year!
Right on! We finelly have a President who cares about the middle class and the stuggle we have endured. The wealthy will now feel out wrath for their excessiveness and greed.
Are you serious?
Or last President gave us two tax cuts.
The wealthy were paying more, by percent, in taxes after the Bush tax cuts than before.
So, those of you who are paying for insurance are in a way paying three times.
First you pay for your own insurance, which you are able to buy because you are healthy enough to qualify - e.g. you are a nice cash cow for the insurance companies that would be collecting your premiums for years to come and paying very little back.
Secondly, you pay taxes for those who rely on government sponsored plans - those who are older and those who are rejected by the insurance companies and are able to qualify for government assistance.
Third - you are paying higher prices for procedures and treatments in the hospitals that take losses from having to treat those who are sick and are unable to be insured. Hospitals pro-rate their losses into higher prices that result in higher bills for you, which also results in higher insurance premiums and deductibles and out of pocket expenses.
If your employer pays for insurance you may not right away feel how much you are paying. But you are paying by getting lower pay than you may otherwise be able to get doing the same job working for yourself or if your employer wouldn't be burdened by increasing insurance costs.
Healthcare costs are also incorporated into other types of insurance like car insurance. another hidden cost.
Your second and third group... why are they not the same people??
But in the end I agree... we are all paying it one way or another.. But this only started when government started to socialize the health industry.. If they had let the insurance companies AND hospitals operate in a free market enviroment with out massive regulations then I wouldn't be paying for everyone else health care ALREADY... as you stated..
maybe a law that outlaws all forms of insurance.. go back to health care 101.. you write the doc a check or pay him cash.. think of all the people who are employed just to deal the insurance quagmire that would be OFF the payroll..
Nope what happened last night was not only unconstitutional but was the worst thing that coulod have hapened to this country!!
Q: I own a small business. Would I have to buy insurance for my workers? What help could I get?
A: It depends on the size of your firm. Companies with fewer than 50 workers wouldn't face any penalties if they didn't offer insurance.
The next paragraph in that answer reads:
Companies couldget tax credits to help buy insurance if they have 25 or fewer employees and a workforce with an average wage of up to $50,000. Tax credits of up to 35 percent of the cost of premiums would be available this year and would reach 50 percent in 2014. The full credits are for the smallest firms with low-wage workers; the subsidies shrink as companies' workforces and average wages rise.
Then I looked back up the page and saw this:
Q: What if I make too much for Medicaid but still can't afford coverage? A: You might be eligible for government subsidies to help you pay for private insurance that would be sold in the new state-based insurance marketplaces, called exchanges, slated to begin operation in 2014. Premium subsidies would be available for individuals and families with incomes between 133 percent and 400 percent of the poverty level, or $14,404 to $43,320 for individuals and $29,326 to $88,200 for a family of four. The subsidies would be on a sliding scale. For example, a family of four earning 150 percent of the poverty level, or $33,075 a year, would have to pay 4 percent of its income, or $1,323, on premiums. A family with income of 400 percent of the poverty level would have to pay 9.5 percent, or $8,379.
Here's where I get fuzzy -- as a small employer, I am going to pay $20,400 per year for the employee with a family of 4 ($1,700 per month for HIP HMO family level). I 'could' (could, as in expressing possibility, no guarantee) receive a 35% tax credit (= $7,140) the year it's enacted. Perhaps I 'could' receive the full credit but it all depends upon what the government considers low wage.
I have 3 such employees which means I am paying $61,200 a year. They will fall into the $70K range, thereby qualifying them for subsidies to the tune of $7K plus each.
Where does this money come from? A possible tax credit is nice, but given this economy, in my profession, where am I to suddenly muster up an additional $5,100 a month? Am I supposed to lay it out, fill out copious amounts of paperwork, and wait 90 days to be reimbursed?
Even if the employees are receiving subsidies to help them pay, who will receive it? Will I be counting on the government each month? Will I need to hire an additional person solely for health care administrative duties?
My point is that the wording of the answers in the NPR article is not clear and not concrete. There is too much vaguery and it doesn't instill any confidence in me and probably many more small business owners.
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,023,210 times
Reputation: 36027
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu
Look, the point wasn't to hammer you exclusively, but rather to address the fundamental problem with many of the empathetic attempts to justify healthcare reform. We both know that 32 million people don't have insurance, but DO have discretionary spending. In my opinion thats wrong.
My point being, if we allow the government the responsibility to ensure that people have things like health insurance, without the ability to ensure that people are in the least attempting to be self sufficient, then how can we expect to overcome the new trend of reliance on government to "provide" for us?
We can't. Humans by nature are selfish and lazy. People work hard in order to obtain the items commonly refered to as discretionary because they have to or do without. What we are seeing in this 50 year trend is that people want all the discretionary items, and thus don't have any money for self sustaining necessities. I spend a good chunk of money a month on things that I don't really want to spend on. But I do, because I am mature enough to know those are necessities and thus I sacrifice some of the discretionary items.
We live in the culture of the "I want it now". People expect that they have a right to cell phones, expensive cars, new sneekers, and eating at a nice restaurant once a month. We are now subsidizing this discretionary spending by providing people with the necessities they should be buying first.
Further, people are not putting themselves in positions to be able to afford the necessities. Why should they. We have established a society that expects a certain level of entitlements. Healthcare is the newest one. A warm meal, a roof over their head, and other "necessities" including now healthcare guarantee that regardless of contribution to the society, society will take care of them. This is damaging for the collective as a whole. The more we as a society embrass these measures, the more we can expect that people will fail to provide for themselves and utilize the system as a means to an end.
This, along with the discretionary spending above is what America is today. Some people scream and kick about how people like me have no compassion, but really my compassion lies with the collective, the group, the society... not an individual.
If our economy totally collapsed, and people were dying in the streets and starving, I am all about the govenrment stepping in. That isn't the case here. We have to stop driving policy with gross exaggerations and empathetic bleeding heart agendas. Its hurting more than its helping.
This plan forces everyone to be responsible as now EVERYONE must purchase insurance. What is it about this plan that does not involve personal responsibility?
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,023,210 times
Reputation: 36027
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu
Because "legitimately cannot afford coverage" doesn't happen in a vacuum. You have analize WHY people can't afford coverage before you start expecting that everybody else pay the bill.
Is there legitimately people who are in situations out of their control who have no other means to obtain health insurance. Sure. That number however isn't 32 million.
We as a society need to change the culture which drives dependancy. Though these bills feel good, and are humanitarian, they aren't what we should be doing create futher dependancy on others to sustain our lives. We need to remember the enviornment which built this country. Self sustaining liberties which provide for the means, not the end. The constitution gives everybody the oppurtunity to be able to put them in a position to afford healthcare, it doesnt however guarantee it.
As a society, we must instill these concepts in our young if we expect our society to continue to develop into a thriving mecca for people all over the world. We have to instill a sense of value and sustainability into our youth and reinforce it in our society.
Its similar to the "ask not what can your country do for you, but what can you do for your country" idea on social development. One has to be able to understand the purpose and importance of self sustainability, and as a society we need to stop engaging in policies which are contrary to this belief.
In the mean time, folks such as me are struggling to pay for expensive health insurance that is costing me 20% of my limited 2K per month income. My insurance is expensive because of a pre-existing condition. I have done what I can to be self-sufficient and it is killing me financially!
Shhh... if you tip them off now, you'll miss all the fun when this realization dawns on them.
It'll really get interesting when those 30 million or so start showing up at doctors' offices and hospitals demanding their ObamaCare. I see riots starting when they're informed that they're not actually going to get health care, they are just now able to purchase health insurance that has 30% co-pays.
(The CBO scored the 30% co-pay plan. Find your approximate individual or total family income range (as the case may be) on the charts on page 29 at the link below, and look to the last column to see the total cost and what percentage of your income that cost is: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/107xx/doc10781/11-30-Premiums.pdf
For many, it will be ~15-20% of their annual income.)
Lovely.
If those charts are any indicator, my insurance will have gone up a minimum of another $8K per year. First AMT and now this.
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