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I was a member of an evangelical Southern Baptist church for over a decade, and not once did politics come up during a sermon, Sunday school, or at any other point. In fact, the church had a policy of leaving politics at the door. The way people have been taking recently, you would think every church in the country constantly talks about gays, abortion, Obama, etc.
We rarely hear it from the pulpit at our little church either (and when we do, I quietly gather up the grandkids and leave), but it's there nonetheless. I teach adult Sunday School, using SBC Bible study literature, and there are many, many times when I have to edit out political stuff from my teachers guide. I'm sure not every teacher does, and it stands to reason that such things could very well be included in Sunday School and Bible study literature in other denominations as well.
(I put this here, rather than in the Christian forums, because I'd like to hear what non-Christian's have to say on the matter.)
What is it with Christian's these days? What are they afraid of?
Last night, I tried to watch the latest Hal Lindsey program and could only stomach about half of it. Generally, I like ol' Hal and, though he mumbles a lot because of not using a script, his Bible prophesy program is usually pretty interesting. Last night, however, he deviated from his regular programming and spent all the time I watched him talking about the evil, socialist health care reform passed by the Congress and warning us about Obama. I don't know if he tried to tie that into prophesy or not, but I couldn't help but wonder, "What has this got to do with the Gospel and why are you doing it?" I have the same thought every time I see a preacher or Christian leader taking sides in the politics of the day. Why, a few weeks ago, even Jack Van Impe clearly implied that Obama might be the anti-Christ!
Christian programming and other media are full of such things. It's as if all of organized Christianity has suddenly gone stark raving mad, plunging off into the deep end of fear and partisan politics, to the detriment of spreading the Gospel. Suddenly, instead of going what the Lord told us to do (Go ye therefore into all the world...), we've become water-carriers for the Republican Party, spreading their message of hysterical fear of the new administration. The line between religion and politics has now become so blurred, so indistinct, that far too many Christian's can't tell the difference any more. When political opposition rises to the level of claiming it's God's Will, when Jesus Christ is co-opted into a certain political stance, the Good News of Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ gets lost in the noise. Worse, it drives people AWAY from the Truth of Jesus because any time we Christian's take a political stance, we immediately alienate everyone on the other side of the issue and witnessing to them becomes a practical impossibility. Instead of being welcomed by them as keepers of the Faith, of loving followers of Christ concerned for their eternal souls, we're seen as hateful, political hacks who aren't worth listening to.
Is this what Christ told us to do? Where in Scripture does He say for us to involve Him in politics? By what authority do we dare drag His name into ANY political party? I can't find it, yet it's happening every day.
I understand the desire to stand up for what is right, but is this how we should be doing it? If it damages the Message, of what practical purpose is it in light of what Jesus told us to do? Which is more important to us? "Saving" America, or seeing the lost get saved? Right now, I fear the answer is the former and, sadly, I fear my position is the minority one within Christianity.
I wonder if this isn't the reason our churches are empty.
When the Founders (Madison) wrote the First Amendment, they clearly wanted no interference from the federal government in the religious affairs of the people. This was not done to restrain the Church from interfering with the affairs of government, but to protect the Church from the entanglements of government. The liberal will disagree with that interpretation of the Constitution as they will with any interpretation that limits the power of the state.
When Dr. King mounted his campaign to right the wrongs written into the laws of southern states that made one class of people inferior to that of another, he did so as the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and railed against the injustice from Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Was he wrong? Did his efforts to challenge us to live up to words written in our Constitution harm his Christian testimony? Would he be a stronger Christian if he did nothing to liberate the oppressed?
Today we have different oppressors, but the need to protect the rights of the disenfranchised is the same, and to do nothing is clearly wrong.
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
Let me ask another, perhaps more relevent question:
When a Christian denomination takes a public stance on a political issue, does it make you more, or less likely to support or oppose that issue?
For instance, when the Southern Baptist Convention issues a statement in opposition to same-sex marriage, does their stance make you more, or less likely to adopt their position? Is it relative at all?
When the Founders (Madison) wrote the First Amendment, they clearly wanted no interference from the federal government in the religious affairs of the people. This was not done to restrain the Church from interfering with the affairs of government, but to protect the Church from the entanglements of government. The liberal will disagree with that interpretation of the Constitution as they will with any interpretation that limits the power of the state.
When Dr. King mounted his campaign to right the wrongs written into the laws of southern states that made one class of people inferior to that of another, he did so as the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and railed against the injustice from Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Was he wrong? Did his efforts to challenge us to live up to words written in our Constitution harm his Christian testimony? Would he be a stronger Christian if he did nothing to liberate the oppressed?
Today we have different oppressors, but the need to protect the rights of the disenfranchised is the same, and to do nothing is clearly wrong.
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
James 4:17 NKJV
You're right that Dr. King attacked racial injustice as the leader of the SCLC, but he did not attempt or claim to speak for his whole denomination.
While I certainly agree with your assessment of what the founders intended with the 1st Amendment, there is a difference between ones individual faith informing their politics and an entire denomination speaking for every individual member and using their numbers to influence public policy to achieve their goals.
To me, anyhow, an individual taking a stand based upon his faith is one thing, but when whole denominations attempt to use the power of government to enforce compliance with their interpretation of the Bible, the line between government and religion has been crossed.
I fear such actions not only damage our democracy, but also hinder the preaching of the Gospel.
(I put this here, rather than in the Christian forums, because I'd like to hear what non-Christian's have to say on the matter.)
What is it with Christian's these days? What are they afraid of?
Last night, I tried to watch the latest Hal Lindsey program and could only stomach about half of it. Generally, I like ol' Hal and, though he mumbles a lot because of not using a script, his Bible prophesy program is usually pretty interesting. Last night, however, he deviated from his regular programming and spent all the time I watched him talking about the evil, socialist health care reform passed by the Congress and warning us about Obama. I don't know if he tried to tie that into prophesy or not, but I couldn't help but wonder, "What has this got to do with the Gospel and why are you doing it?" I have the same thought every time I see a preacher or Christian leader taking sides in the politics of the day. Why, a few weeks ago, even Jack Van Impe clearly implied that Obama might be the anti-Christ!
Christian programming and other media are full of such things. It's as if all of organized Christianity has suddenly gone stark raving mad, plunging off into the deep end of fear and partisan politics, to the detriment of spreading the Gospel. Suddenly, instead of going what the Lord told us to do (Go ye therefore into all the world...), we've become water-carriers for the Republican Party, spreading their message of hysterical fear of the new administration. The line between religion and politics has now become so blurred, so indistinct, that far too many Christian's can't tell the difference any more. When political opposition rises to the level of claiming it's God's Will, when Jesus Christ is co-opted into a certain political stance, the Good News of Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ gets lost in the noise. Worse, it drives people AWAY from the Truth of Jesus because any time we Christian's take a political stance, we immediately alienate everyone on the other side of the issue and witnessing to them becomes a practical impossibility. Instead of being welcomed by them as keepers of the Faith, of loving followers of Christ concerned for their eternal souls, we're seen as hateful, political hacks who aren't worth listening to.
Is this what Christ told us to do? Where in Scripture does He say for us to involve Him in politics? By what authority do we dare drag His name into ANY political party? I can't find it, yet it's happening every day.
I understand the desire to stand up for what is right, but is this how we should be doing it? If it damages the Message, of what practical purpose is it in light of what Jesus told us to do? Which is more important to us? "Saving" America, or seeing the lost get saved? Right now, I fear the answer is the former and, sadly, I fear my position is the minority one within Christianity.
I wonder if this isn't the reason our churches are empty.
I read this post this afternoon and then read the results of the latest Rasmussen poll about Christianity and Easter and had to bring you a link to that poll. They say that 78% of Americans believe that Jesus arose from the dead on Good Friday and 85% of Americans believe that he did walk on the Earth 2000 years ago.
Now with that information we find Obama telling Muslims that the US is no longer a Christian nation. Maybe progressivism and its propaganda has had something to do with those empty pews. I have thought like that for a very long number of years and am more convinced than ever today.
I read this post this afternoon and then read the results of the latest Rasmussen poll about Christianity and Easter and had to bring you a link to that poll. They say that 78% of Americans believe that Jesus arose from the dead on Good Friday and 85% of Americans believe that he did walk on the Earth 2000 years ago.
Now with that information we find Obama telling Muslims that the US is no longer a Christian nation. Maybe progressivism and its propaganda has had something to do with those empty pews. I have thought like that for a very long number of years and am more convinced than ever today.
I personally would take that poll with a very large grain of salt. They only asked 1000 people and they don't say who those 1000 were. Perhaps significantly, they do NOT say it was a random sample. ANY poll can be manipulated to achieve the desired outcome by chosing who they ask and tailoring the questions to get the "right" answer.
In any case, your comment about Obama and Muslims in relation to that poll is a perfect example of blending issues of faith with issues of politics as if they are somehow one and the same. What you've probably unintentionally done is take data about Christian's in America and turned it into a political jab at the President. That is precisely what I've been talking about as being both dangerous to our democracy and to the Gospel because the implication is that Obama has somehow done something evil and "un-Christian." Your comment linked all of Christianity with the President's political opponents.
You're right that Dr. King attacked racial injustice as the leader of the SCLC, but he did not attempt or claim to speak for his whole denomination.
While I certainly agree with your assessment of what the founders intended with the 1st Amendment, there is a difference between ones individual faith informing their politics and an entire denomination speaking for every individual member and using their numbers to influence public policy to achieve their goals.
To me, anyhow, an individual taking a stand based upon his faith is one thing, but when whole denominations attempt to use the power of government to enforce compliance with their interpretation of the Bible, the line between government and religion has been crossed.
I fear such actions not only damage our democracy, but also hinder the preaching of the Gospel.
Well, the same First Amendment that assures our religious freedom and free speech also includes the right to freely assemble and to petition the government. It's hard to imagine that these rights, confined to one amendment and placed before all others, would be listed together by chance. Keeping in mind that the Founders held that our rights came form God and not men, it's difficult to imagine they didn't foresee religious organizations working to hold government accountable to the requirements of the Constitution. I just don't see a conflict between our system of redress and the preaching of the Gospel provided the goals and motives are in harmony with the teachings of Christ.
When the Founders (Madison) wrote the First Amendment, they clearly wanted no interference from the federal government in the religious affairs of the people. This was not done to restrain the Church from interfering with the affairs of government, but to protect the Church from the entanglements of government. The liberal will disagree with that interpretation of the Constitution as they will with any interpretation that limits the power of the state.
When Dr. King mounted his campaign to right the wrongs written into the laws of southern states that made one class of people inferior to that of another, he did so as the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and railed against the injustice from Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Was he wrong? Did his efforts to challenge us to live up to words written in our Constitution harm his Christian testimony? Would he be a stronger Christian if he did nothing to liberate the oppressed?
Today we have different oppressors, but the need to protect the rights of the disenfranchised is the same, and to do nothing is clearly wrong.
"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
James 4:17 NKJV
I attend that would probably be described as a progressive social justice church. Although I haven't asked every member, most of whom consider themselves liberal. I would dare say most if not all would agree with your statement that:
When the Founders (Madison) wrote the First Amendment, they clearly wanted no interference from the federal government in the religious affairs of the people. This was not done to restrain the Church from interfering with the affairs of government, but to protect the Church from the entanglements of government.
So clearly I disagree with your statement that liberals would not agree with that interpretation.
The following is from the American United website. AU is considered to be a liberal organization. Freedom Of Religion | Americans United The right to practice a chosen faith – or refrain from practicing any – is cherished by the American people. The separation of church and state protects this right by freeing religion from obtrusive government interference. Government must show a compelling interest before restricting religious exercise.
(I put this here, rather than in the Christian forums, because I'd like to hear what non-Christian's have to say on the matter.)
What is it with Christian's these days? What are they afraid of?
Last night, I tried to watch the latest Hal Lindsey program and could only stomach about half of it. Generally, I like ol' Hal and, though he mumbles a lot because of not using a script, his Bible prophesy program is usually pretty interesting. Last night, however, he deviated from his regular programming and spent all the time I watched him talking about the evil, socialist health care reform passed by the Congress and warning us about Obama. I don't know if he tried to tie that into prophesy or not, but I couldn't help but wonder, "What has this got to do with the Gospel and why are you doing it?" I have the same thought every time I see a preacher or Christian leader taking sides in the politics of the day. Why, a few weeks ago, even Jack Van Impe clearly implied that Obama might be the anti-Christ!
Christian programming and other media are full of such things. It's as if all of organized Christianity has suddenly gone stark raving mad, plunging off into the deep end of fear and partisan politics, to the detriment of spreading the Gospel. Suddenly, instead of going what the Lord told us to do (Go ye therefore into all the world...), we've become water-carriers for the Republican Party, spreading their message of hysterical fear of the new administration. The line between religion and politics has now become so blurred, so indistinct, that far too many Christian's can't tell the difference any more. When political opposition rises to the level of claiming it's God's Will, when Jesus Christ is co-opted into a certain political stance, the Good News of Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ gets lost in the noise. Worse, it drives people AWAY from the Truth of Jesus because any time we Christian's take a political stance, we immediately alienate everyone on the other side of the issue and witnessing to them becomes a practical impossibility. Instead of being welcomed by them as keepers of the Faith, of loving followers of Christ concerned for their eternal souls, we're seen as hateful, political hacks who aren't worth listening to.
Is this what Christ told us to do? Where in Scripture does He say for us to involve Him in politics? By what authority do we dare drag His name into ANY political party? I can't find it, yet it's happening every day.
I understand the desire to stand up for what is right, but is this how we should be doing it? If it damages the Message, of what practical purpose is it in light of what Jesus told us to do? Which is more important to us? "Saving" America, or seeing the lost get saved? Right now, I fear the answer is the former and, sadly, I fear my position is the minority one within Christianity.
I wonder if this isn't the reason our churches are empty.
Those who have their faith placed in the Lord are not afraid. What is there to be afraid of from people?
The reason, imho, the churches have fewer people in them today than they did yesterday, is because there are fewer faith based people in the world. (which is biblical prophecy and so therefore expected)
As for as politics and Christ, it was politics that hung Christ to begin with. He was charged with a crime by a king, that he didn't commit and hung, so as to get him out of the way. End of story...story or not, bs or not, it is still the story of how people hung the greatest humanitarian of their time and no one put a stop to it. (true colors come shinning through)
People are aware that in time there will be an anti-Christ who is believed to be a person who is loved by all those around the world. The first clue that Obama is not the anti-Christ is because he is not loved by all those around the world. Also, this person is said to possess all the answers to world hunger, he will bring peace to all nations, he will bring with him a most powerful message that will leave all people just dazzled by his brilliance.
He will be the ruler of the World and a deceiver of all mankind.
Now in order for this person to set up his throne of rule, the world will need to develop into a fashion where as to make this possible. The only way for this prophecy to come true as the Bible depicts that it will, is for all of the world to stand as one nation, under one government.
Now we can take what is and has been developing over the years one of two ways, 1) the people who wrote the Bible knew what they were talking about, or 2) it is total bs.
Never-the-less, it appears to me that the Bible is an architecture of government, design. Some one is following it.
Side note: I was thinking today. Use to say a person was shopping and at the check out the store clerk said Happy Easter, those who didn't believe in Easter, would dismiss the comment or take it as a show of respect.
Now a person utters anything remotely and oh man, those are fight 'en words.
So, I grew tired of trying to bring any one to Christ. People, you're on your own.
I'm sorry Lord, I just can't do it any more...
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