U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Psychology
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-28-2019, 08:22 PM
 
3,062 posts, read 1,568,232 times
Reputation: 3202

Advertisements

It is possible to be raised in an environment where a person is treated as incompetent, bringing insecurity into their life. They are expected to suddenly act like adults when they turn 18 but for most of their life, they couldn't make decisions, learn from trial and error.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-28-2019, 08:29 PM
Status: "could've~would've~should've used 'have', not 'of'" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: A Yankee in northeast TN
10,507 posts, read 14,335,765 times
Reputation: 23366
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkeydance View Post
sex or no sex.
usually works.
for me, anyway.
and love, or power, or... one of many other emotions that appeal to what someone might want or need.
"If you really love me prove it by doing this for me." Rinse and repeat in various forms until you have someone convinced that not only is ok to do something, but that it's necessary. In spite of initial misgivings or reluctance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2019, 03:41 AM
 
3,062 posts, read 1,568,232 times
Reputation: 3202
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
and love, or power, or... one of many other emotions that appeal to what someone might want or need.
"If you really love me prove it by doing this for me." Rinse and repeat in various forms until you have someone convinced that not only is ok to do something, but that it's necessary. In spite of initial misgivings or reluctance.
If we are looking for mistakes made in sequential order, the bolded is where to start. I learned that in our culture, here in America, we are taught to ignore misgivings or reluctance in ourselves and in others. It is pervasive in our culture even in relationships where people wish the best for us. It could go either way. That is why it is not easy to identify when this behavior has turned into manipulation. It is not a single event that starts the manipulation. It is a process.

So what I have done different is this: when a person says "no" or anything similar to "no" I don't ask anymore. It feels a little too passive and there are people who equate begging as caring about them (insecurity), but I made the choice not to have people like that in my life. I want people who are capable of changing their minds, who are capable of standing their ground and who are not afraid to reject me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2019, 04:44 AM
 
413 posts, read 81,829 times
Reputation: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshaBrady1968 View Post
Are people really that weak minded? Really lack free will?
The simple answer is yes. But, of course, everyone is different, so some are easier to manipulate than others.

The easiest example of 'manipulation' is an infant's cry, which activates release of certain hormones in a body that in turn activate particular regions of a brain that prompts the person into action. In those who, for instance, have some hormonal imbalance or physiological condition that short circuits this process reaction would be less forthcoming.

The more complex is the herd mentality and the erosion and/or radicalisation of individuality when a part of this group dynamic.

We have a phenomenal capacity for self-rationalisation, so even things like killing and torture could potentially find justification. And what is an 'influencer' if not an enabler of easier justification.

There are countless number of studies and many research papers and books written on the subject. If you are interested in the books, I'd recommend Dr. Philip Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect and Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature. The latter not only identifies the many factors capable of affecting violence but also the forces that move us along the civilizing process and see reduction of violence.

If books are too heavy, then there is no better way to learn about manipulation than from those who actively demystify the process through their craft. One of these people is Derren Brown. There's a ton of his stuff on YouTube. He is a famous British mentalist and illusionist that creates shows centered around ways that people can be manipulated.



I don't know if this link will work where you are (if not, just google 'Derren Brown bank robbery')
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2019, 10:16 AM
 
20,603 posts, read 16,652,763 times
Reputation: 38701
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshaBrady1968 View Post
I have never understood, though I have contemplated and read about, any and all kinds of manipulation.
This can be from something really huge, such as murder, or something smaller such as voting, or something really small such as diet.

How can a person who does not actually kill be found responsible for killing? Whether the non-killer, at-fault party actually organizes the killing by hiring someone to do it, or whether they only continue to plant ideas into someone whom they know will eventually "snap" and kill, how and why would they be made the responsible party? Isn't the trigger man capable of saying no?

People were all upset over the infiltration of Facebook and alleged influencing of election. How can someone be influenced? Are people not steadfast in their own beliefs? Not smart enough to fact check? I don't understand why anyone would, or let it phase them, that some stupid feed comes through Facebook, et al, let alone be able to place blame.

Other things that are blamed on "the manipulation of others" are poor decisions on diet or alcohol/drugs or bad activities. I just do not understand this concept. How are people influenced to do anything that they don't want to do, or that they allege they otherwise wouldn't have, but for the manipulation of someone else?

Are people really that weak minded? Really lack free will?
I don’t think they lack free will, as other said they’re just vulnerable for one reason or another. And the people that do the manipulating are good at it and able to convince them that they have the answers to their problems. Look what happened with the Guyana cult and Jim Jones, Waco, the Manson murders. Heck, even the people who don’t have enough to eat yet are still sending money to the 700 club and other televangelists while the people they are sending it to live in mansions. Look at how Hitler and the propaganda of the times was able to manipulate an entire nation into either condoning or actually participating in mass murder.



It doesn't start at that level, it is more insidious than directly asking you to kill someone, it starts with getting you to trust them, then little by little getting you to believe false things and then getting you to take an action based on the false beliefs and the trust for that person. Charles Manson didn't start off saying he wanted his followers to kill. he started off with a loving atmosphere, then lectures about the evils of the wealthy, then eventually getting them to believe that the Utopia they've created is now threatened by those wealthy people, and they must act to stop them.



This is also what pimps do when they pick up a young runaway. They are super sweet to them first, act like the loving daddy she never had, this goes on until she trusts and loves him, which doesn't take long because these girls are quite vulnerable and still children. Then they say "we need money, please do this for me, for us, just this once" and she does, and before she realizes what has happened she is a prisoner locked into the sex trade and her knight in shining armor is now punching her in the head for not bringing home enough money.

The Russian manipulation of our election was a bit different, because they were spreading lies. In the black community, they would spread a lie for instance about something Hillary Clinton was supposed to have said or done that was derogatory to African-Americans. They would do this posing as members of the black community, legit political organizations. Give themselves credible sounding names like The African American Political Alliance or other made up name that sounded legit but was really just Igor in a room filled with computers and others doing exactly what he was doing. The solution they would push would be "stay home don’t vote". If people who already felt disenfranchised believed the lies that they were being told, it was then easy to take the rest of the message to heart and stay home on election day.

Last edited by ocnjgirl; 06-29-2019 at 11:32 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-02-2019, 08:07 AM
 
Location: DFW
557 posts, read 158,440 times
Reputation: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Wise View Post
I will try to use an analogy to answer the main question.

In order for a person to make a sound decision in their own best interest, they must first know what is in their own best interest. Now... how does a person know this? Often through extensive experience or study.. OR by trusting another person who "claims" to know best.

For instance, if a company is claiming to sell "the healthiest candy bar ever made" how do regular people like us confirm this to be true? We have to trust the labels, trust the company, trust the process that lead that company to sell their product legally, and trust the scientists who did the tests.

If some or all of the entitles behind this "healthiest candy bar ever made" are corrupt or lying to us, it can lead us to buy something that is not as healthy for us as we believe it to be.

Can we expect everyone in the world to become a food scientist before buying a candy bar? Not realistic right?
Yea....this is not the best analogy to use to prove your point. I read the ingredients of everything I buy (though most of what I buy doesn't "have ingredients" because it IS the ingredient). It is hard for me to imagine that everyone doesn't do this, but I know of course that they don't

Everything put in the body can either feed health or feed disease. Maybe I digress on the subject at hand, but if someone told me something was wrong with my car, I would still research to the best of my ability to figure out if they were correct or not.

I am going to watch the video provided and read the book mentioned, as I feel this would open the window in my mind about this subject.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Psychology
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top