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The other thing that I wasn't thrilled with was the TONE of the article, which was, frankly, passive aggressive. She sounds like she is peeved at some specific person over some recent thing,
[quote=Sonic_Spork;57092480]I read the whole thing.
And I said that I agreed with quite a bit of her content/points, until she got to the part where any self-respecting woman would be a feminist because otherwise you're not even on your own team or whatever (I'm paraphrasing from memory and hoping the gist comes across, not going back to read it again, I read it yesterday.) And that a man who wants to be with said proper feminist woman should ought to be dedicated enough to feminist causes to be listening to activist podcasts and so on.
I'm sorry, you can take away my "Strong Independent Woman" card if need be, but I'm not an activist, I'm not a feminist, I have no desire to slap a label onto myself and go join a march or a movement, though I respect anybody's right (and their dedication) if that is what they choose. I suppose it kind of depends on how someone defines activist. I tend to speak up a lot more, the older I get. But have no desire to march in a parade or some such. Maybe that makes me an armchair activist...which is probably about the same as "You're not an activist at all Sassy."
I will argue the feminist side of many arguments, but I don't like to use the term itself because it has meant a number of things, causes a lot of conversational shut-down, defensiveness, assumption, and general foolery that makes it harder to discuss real stuff. I used to feel the same way. I didn't like the term because it seemed like to describe myself as a feminist was to say I was some kind of militant...and I don't think I'm a militant.
But again...maybe it's a by-product of getting older...with more years behind me than in front of me, that I want women to feel unencumbered in this world, with the same opportunities that men tend to take for granted. So...while I don't think I'm militant...I DO think of myself as a feminist. Do I adopt ALL feminist tenents? No. I do not. But not adopting all tenents doesn't mean I'm not a feminist....if that makes sense.
I want to dig into the meat of whatever issues we might be talking about. Not just throw on some team colors and go to war. My dude, does NOT need to listen to feminist freaking podcasts. I feel the same way. My man doesn't need to listen to feminists broadcasts. I'm married to a good man who treats me as his equal.
But his Great-Grandma was one of the pioneers of feminism and had a radio show back in her day, now that I would find interesting to hear, if I could.
The other thing that I wasn't thrilled with was the TONE of the article, which was, frankly, passive aggressive.Yes, I would agree. It WAS passive aggressive. But again...dedicated to a specific subset. She was not throwing a net on all men. She sounds like she is peeved at some specific person over some recent thing, and has attached it to other events and incidents in her experience, and decided that rather than writing a blog saying, "Get a load of this guy..." she would act like it's a big fat social outrage to be addressed towards some significant body of men out there. It's the blog equivalent of vague-booking.
But it is her blog. Maybe venting is what she uses it for. I dunno.
I think the other thing that is a bit divisive in general when it comes to how people feel about the "Strong Independent Woman" thing... It could mean something other than the successful career woman. Consider the image of a woman who says that, because she's survived a lot of hardship. To a lot of people, there is this nobility in simply surviving a ton of hell. "Strong and Independent" because what choice did life seem to give her? The (maybe reasonable?) question is...how much of that hardship was of her own making in full or in part, and is she able to stop making choices that lead to crisis, and take a more stable path? I've heard drug addicts (not recovered addicts, but present day addicts) call themselves that. I've heard huge drama queens say that, where the "don't need no man" sounded more than a bit like she decided this after no man would choose to stay with her loud, obnoxious self. Just like some of the men who have (not really) gone some particular "way" of their "own." They are strong and independent and don't need no woman! I've seen/know about those women too. They tend to post a lot of 'inspirational' memes about being strong, and surviving, and blah blah blah. MAYBE this poster DOES fall in to that category. And everyone that knows them knows they're very needy, selfish, and takers. I don't know.
BUT, I also know a couple of men (and not talking about anyone here) who would offer a female a roof over their heads in exchange for cooking, cleaning, and occasional sex. They were a bit surprised (seriously) when they were turned down.
Truly strong and independent women have options. They don't NEED a man. To me, that's the primary focus, and what everyone seems to be missing. NEED.
I think most mature and well balanced people, men AND women get that aspect...but some, maybe a lot of people, don't get it.
Does my husband want me to stay 2 paces behind him, and cringe if he moves his hands too fast? No. Of course not. Does he want me to stay in the relationship out of fear, or need? No.
I think MOST of us here feel the same about THAT. Electrician doesn't want a wife to be afraid of him. He doesn't want her to stay with him because she's in it for his pay check. He WANTS her there, of her own free will. And to me, that's the difference between NEEDING and WANTING.
My life experience is that strong, independent women tend to be well educated and have successful careers. They’re affluent and make good life decisions so they have no problem managing their lives. It’s tough to be independent if you’re struggling living paycheck to paycheck. If you’re in those circumstances where you’re successful and having no problem running your life, you’re going to pick your socioeconomic equal and likely approach the relationship as an equal partner.
The first of the questions to ask yourself at the end of the blog is:
“Are you comfortable with her having goals, priorities and ambitions that don’t include you?â€
There’s a spectrum of this. In a committed long term relationship, you can’t make all your decisions in a vacuum. Ex-wife v1.0 would come home and announce that she was just offered a transfer to Wichita or somewhere similar where a Boston high tech guy like me couldn’t earn a living. It’s fine to have a career and career ambitions but if you’re in a real relationship, those things have to be discussed with joint decisions.
One hardly has to be affluent to be independent. There's a big space between struggling and affluence, where most people fit. And poorer women often have to be strong. They may have to work a few jobs.
you've caught yourself saying things like "I want a woman who can pull her own weight, who can make the bacon, and cook it up in the pan"...well...maybe you're the audience the blog is meant for.
Its 2020 meaning the bills/debt and cost of living are higher, The days of Men mostly being the 'sole provider' are long-gone and it isn't uncommon for many Men to want a 'woman who can make bacon & pull her own weight as well', That doesn't make her "independent" but rather a great 'partner' and contributor to the relationship.
Imho the term independent would best fit a women who has it all together and doesn't NEED to rely on a man but rather WANTS a romantic partnership etc. As for you discussing 'laying down rules on her' its called boundaries and no relationship survives without them, You can be independent all you want but any Man with an ounce of decency and self-respect wouldn't tolerate being used as a rug or being treated as an option and that works both ways. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Its 2020 meaning the bills/debt and cost of living are higher, The days of Men mostly being the 'sole provider' are long-gone and it isn't uncommon for many Men to want a 'woman who can make bacon & pull her own weight as well', That doesn't make her "independent" but rather a great 'partner' and contributor to the relationship.
Imho the term independent would best fit a women who has it all together and doesn't NEED to rely on a man but rather WANTS a romantic partnership etc. As for you discussing 'laying down rules on her' its called boundaries and no relationship survives without them, You can be independent all you want but any Man with an ounce of decency and self-respect wouldn't tolerate being used as a rug or being treated as an option and that works both ways. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I know it's not romantic, but women and men alike are options. There's plenty of people in the world and directions to go in life. If someone isn't right for you then you don't have to settle for him or her. Find someone else or enjoy being single again. Nobody's holding a gun to your head. You have options. With that said, that doesn't mean you can't honor your commitment to your partner and respect him or her. You absolutely can. I guess it's a matter of realizing you have the power to leave situations that aren't working out.
One hardly has to be affluent to be independent. There's a big space between struggling and affluence, where most people fit. And poorer women often have to be strong. They may have to work a few jobs.
Agree.
I get tired of people with higher-earning careers claiming they are the only ones who are independent or strong. It's just not true.
RE "activism/feminism"... I mean, do I want to make the world a better place? Sure, I do. I think probably most of us do, whatever that looks like or means to us, in some manner. I just get really annoyed with the tendency of people to do the Team This vs. Team That mode of thinking and talking. I want humanity to get on the same team, more than we do. We're more alike than not, really, most of us.
And I've known men who had serious crisis of self worth growing up hearing some of the older feminist mantras on the news, like they did not want to be oppressors, they loved women...if they accepted that men were all THIS, then how to be good? It's one thing for grown adults to have these debates, but to a little boy growing up in the 1960's, it was kind of hurtful and scary. (That would be my fiance.) Reconciling his feminist family members, wonderful women and beloved matriarchs, with the angry voices on the black and white television, and trying to work out what that meant about him.
I think that some of these movements have good intentions but don't always fully take into account how they might be affecting people.
And I also think that there are forces in our world that want people divided. So if anything I try to be somewhat activist (I guess...I'm also sort of lazy really) about that.
Independence....for most of us IMO.... doesn't mean we *want* to live without a man......it just means we can live without a man & we won't settle..........
Most people "settle," inasmuch as most people don't wind up with their suppositions of an ideal mate, but, if they're lucky, they find people who are fitting partners in life, despite not being princesses or princes.
And some women who do manage to wrangle a prince find that life still isn't perfect.
The whole "I don't need a man" idea is so dumb. Women absolutely need men, and I can prove it.
Look around you....the walls you're sitting in, the roof over your head, the carpet or tile you walk on, the electrical outlets you plug your computers and phones into, the appliances you use daily, the siding or stucco on your house, the concrete your car is parked on, the paint on your walls, the tile on your floors, the highways you drive on, the cars you drive on them with, the bridges you cross when driving them.....
99% of that all built by men. Without us, you'd be in the woods crying by a small fire started by some man that was just passing through.
That reminded me of the Chris Rock joke: "The only reason there are cities is because a woman won't have sex with a man in a cardboard box."
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