Anyone as PO'ed at Alan Greenspan as I am? (appraise, foreclosure, investment)

[jimj]

Originally Posted by gregandvicky

Thiis entire housing economic situation could have been averted with different monetary policy back in 2001 and 2002. It proves Greenspan was not as future seeing as a lot of people thought. He failed.

And WW2 could have been avoided with different foriegn policy and,and, and,. The point is it's a big balencing act that's never going to be perfect and is influenced to some extent by things outside the US control so they do the best they can at the time with the info they have.
Now if he had not acted and the economy went in the toilet wouldn't people be screaming that he was an idiot and failed because he did nothing or did the oposite?
If the fed does nothing this time and we go into a deep recession or depression who then will complain and say he failed?

[palmcoasting]

Don't you remember why the monetary policy was the way it was? Let's try 9/11/2001. If you think we could have recovered without the policies put in place..and not just for the housing industry..I would have to disagree with you.
I also agree with Gregtraub.

[baystater]

Originally Posted by jimj

And WW2 could have been avoided with different foriegn policy and,and, and,. The point is it's a big balencing act that's never going to be perfect and is influenced to some extent by things outside the US control so they do the best they can at the time with the info they have.
Now if he had not acted and the economy went in the toilet wouldn't people be screaming that he was an idiot and failed because he did nothing or did the oposite?
If the fed does nothing this time and we go into a deep recession or depression who then will complain and say he failed?

Jimj. We are heading to a recession no matter what the FED tries at this point. A lot of economists believe this at this point. But the the FED does have control of the degree of recession we go through. I believe just the opposite of you on this point. If the FED cuts rate the 18th we are just putting off a recession. If fact the longer we wait the worse it going to get. I would rather go through a moderate recession now than a deep recession later.
Like I said I feel bad for Bernake he going to get blamed for something that was not his fault.

Originally Posted by palmcoasting

Don't you remember why the monetary policy was the way it was? Let's try 9/11/2001. If you think we could have recovered without the policies put in place..and not just for the housing industry..I would have to disagree with you.
I also agree with Gregtraub.

Notice I did not list September 11 as on the Greenspan's bailouts. That is because it was not just an economic crisis but a National crisis. The Government had to pullout all the stops to keep the nation from panicking. But I still believe we only needed about a year or so to right ours from that event even though it was coupled with the tech bubble collapse. Greenspan held too low for too long. And if you think he couldn't see the housing bubble coming, I would have to disagree. All he had to do was look at alot of the housing data coming out of some of the major metropolitan areas and immediate areas surrounding them and seeing housing double and triple in price form 2000 - 2004. In fact do you find it rather funny that Greenspan the make the "Froth" speech a couple of months before the decided to retire?

[shroom]

Why is it that humans feel a need to blame someone else when things don't go "their way"? IMHO, Greenspan didn't cause the feeding frenzy at the real estate trough; investors didn't; banks & mortgage companies didn't; sellers didn't; buyers didn't; Realtors didn't; appraisers didn't. EVERYONE caused it, fed it, and fed off it. Funny, when the real estate market was soaring insanely (again), was anyone complaining then? Nope, everyone was grinning all the way to the bank. Now we are paying the piper for the tunes played at the dance.

But be patient kids, and don't let your shorts get knotted too tightly - real estate IS & always has been cyclical, and good times will return. And prices will go up again because ... under all is the land .... and they ain't making no more of it, but they are making more humans who need to live on it.

[baystater]

Originally Posted by shroom

Why is it that humans feel a need to blame someone else when things don't go "their way"? IMHO, Greenspan didn't cause the feeding frenzy at the real estate trough; investors didn't; banks & mortgage companies didn't; sellers didn't; buyers didn't; Realtors didn't; appraisers didn't. EVERYONE caused it, fed it, and fed off it. Funny, when the real estate market was soaring insanely (again), was anyone complaining then? Nope, everyone was grinning all the way to the bank. Now we are paying the piper for the tunes played at the dance.

But be patient kids, and don't let your shorts get knotted too tightly - real estate IS & always has been cyclical, and good times will return. And prices will go up again because ... under all is the land .... and they ain't making no more of it, but they are making more humans who need to live on it.

Actually I was ******ing all the way up I hated watching dumps as well as good homes up in the northeast double or triple in price. And drive good people out of good towns because they simply could not afford to buy a home in the area and/or could not afford the taxes on that home. I thought the prices were unjustifiable. Granted the market does dictate what the price is so we had to roll with it. Luck for a lot of us that this bubble has turned and started deflating. It's still about a year out from being affordable again at least that's what I believe.
I do blame greenspan for creating the environment for the bubble that just didn't need to happen. And you can't tell me we as nation aren't addicted to credit. Greenspan didn't help a lot with his policies with that one either.
With your comment on they're not making anymore land comment. Give it a break! Every unscrupulous Realtor was using that line for the run up in the bubble. There plenty of land in America keep cheap housing prices. ND., SD., MI. OH.,WI.,MN.,NE., TX., and ME. But Here's where the problem comes in for some of these areas. There's not a lot of jobs there! That only reason why someplace's on the east coast and west coast are so astronomically expensive. "it's the jobs stupid." (corruption Pres Clinton's remark.)

[jimj]

Is it the governments job to decide how much a person should borrow? Or, is it each individuals job to borrow responsibly? Just becasue you can doesn't mean you should.
Drug dealers give away drugs sometimes to get people hooked, does that mean that everyone should go get some because they're cheap or free? Of course not. I get credit offers daily and I shred them. Why? Because I don't want to be in debt up to my eyeballs for things I don't really need and can't afford. That is called personal resposability. I don't blame Ford or Chevy because the 'vette I would like is so expensive, or go for the 0 interest just to be able to stretch far enough to buy one, I buy a cheaper car instead. Just because the fed lowers rates does not mean that you should stretch yourself to the limit and beyond to get that next big house that you don't need but WANT. What it does mean is that you can get what you need and can afford and pay a little less. We need to get over this idea that the government is our nanny.

[baystater]

Originally Posted by jimj

Is it the governments job to decide how much a person should borrow? Or, is it each individuals job to borrow responsibly? Just becasue you can doesn't mean you should.
Drug dealers give away drugs sometimes to get people hooked, does that mean that everyone should go get some because they're cheap or free? Of course not. I get credit offers daily and I shred them. Why? Because I don't want to be in debt up to my eyeballs for things I don't really need and can't afford. That is called personal resposability. I don't blame Ford or Chevy because the 'vette I would like is so expensive, or go for the 0 interest just to be able to stretch far enough to buy one, I buy a cheaper car instead. Just because the fed lowers rates does not mean that you should stretch yourself to the limit and beyond to get that next big house that you don't need but WANT. What it does mean is that you can get what you need and can afford and pay a little less. We need to get over this idea that the government is our nanny.

Where did I say the government has to watch over how far we can stretch ourselves. What I said was that It's Greenspans fault for CREATING THE ENVIRONMENT WHERE WE WOULD (IN MASS) GET ADDICTED TO CREDIT AND MADE US WILLING TO OVER EXTEND OURSELVES AND NOT SAVE MONEY.
As for the drug reference: Your going the wrong way with that one. It's more like the doctor who writes a prescription for a addictive painkilling drug when we knows that the patient should be pain free when he writes it.
Banks and Credit card companies are more like drug dealers.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by GregTraub

Who's to say if he didn't cut rates that there wouldn't have been an even deeper recession back then?

Who's the person that caused the tech boom...then the bust...that made greenspan lower the rates....that made housing boom....etc...etc.?

Chicken or the egg? Market forces are market forces, no one can forsee everything perfectly since the market is imperfect.

Try to look at how to fix the current problem than dwell on who's to blame for something out of any one persons control

Greenspan also dropped rates extremely low through 2002 and 2003 because of 9/11. Doesn't anyone remember the nosedive the economy took after the terrorist attacks? I think it bottomed out in 2003.

Those low fed rates infused trillions of dollars into the economy, most of which went into the housing market, all in an effort to "prop up" a fickle and unstable U.S. economy post 9/11. In addition, Bush using "homeownership rates" as a health ticker for the U.S. economy also created an environment of loose lending practices. Remember how Bush used to say all the time "U.S. homeownership is at an all-time high"? I haven't heard him say that in a while.

So yes, I think Greenspan was one spoke in a wheel of economic mismanagement.

[jimj]

But I don't see anyone placing the blame where it squarely belongs..... On the people who borrowed it. Please, quit the 'blame McDonalds because my kid's fat game. No one forced anyone through the driveup window just as no one FORCED people to take on more debt than they could or should handle. They just made it easy like going through and ordering a big mac to shut up the kid. Remember personal responsability? Or is that now just blame everyone else?
Yes, our government makes mistakes, all the time as a matter of fact. But because they do doesn't mean we have to does it?
The banks and others should take their lumps to the point that it doesn't destroy the rest of us.... To coin a phrase "The good of the many outweigh the good of the few".

[Skytripper]

The housing/real estate market had been on a roll for way too long and the MAJORITY of property has been way overvalued for too long.
Try and look at another part of the BIG picture.......
It has only been known for a VERY long time that a HUGE segment of the population (Baby Boomers) would be reaching their retirement years in massive numbers all around the same....relatively short period of time.....(decade-decade and a half)....around 2000 and since....
This FACT was seen by many in Economics, Govt. , Bankers/Credit Card Cos., Real Estate developers/speculators, etc. etc.
THEY have forseen a GRAND OPPORTUNITY to take full advantage of the BB generation and as much of its accumulated wealth as they could get their grubby hands on.....legally, illegally, morally, immorally, ethically and unethically!
It ALL boiled down to GREED....GONE WILD and being that GREED IS CONTAGIOUS......it (real estate market/stock market and ANY other investments that practically guaranteed a substantial return in a short amount of time).....AFFECTED MILLIONS of people in a way that resembles a huge "pyramid scheme" now that the proverbial CAT IS OUT of the BAG.
When sooooo many people invest their money in a way that only equivilates it to gambling in Vegas....with soooo many riding on the HOPE of a big payout fast......something's gotta give!
Being that predatory lending practices were rampant and only served to ENTICE soooo many people who really could NOT afford home ownership on their incomes in the first place.....and the fact that they went UNCHECKED and unregulated.....IS a TRAVESTY and a set up for a disaster.........of potentially mammoth and historic proportions!
When the fallout on the current state of the housing market finally clears....and we ALL finally SEE where it does bottom out......a LOT of people will be left Dazed and Confused with shock.....many more in the "poorhouse!"
Throw in the fact that the economy in the US has NOT been very good in a long time.....especially with soooo many manufacturing jobs now far overseas.....a HUGE debt with China and a trade deficit with them alone....approaching ONE TRILLION DOLLARS/Annually.........America at a futile war in the mid-East that is costing BILLIONS/monthly........well you may get the picture.......
Not only is a DEEP recession looming.....but, very likely a MAJOR DEPRESSION.......not like anything seen in America since the 1930's!
PREPARE for IT............
I'm no rocket scientist or Economics major........but the writing IS on the wall......and history has showed us that when the pendulum swings too far one way or the other, checks and balances.......go unchecked....Well,
SH*IT....HAPPENS.....sometimes in way that is very, very difficult to EVER recover from!