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Okay - I just want to point out that reading the documents, and how the documents are enforced may be totally different.
For instance, my communities documents are very vague. At the time I bought here, I was assured that the community was very casual. At that time, they were loosely enforcing the covenants that troubled me (they have the right to approve/disapprove my patio furniture for goodness sake!).
I was assured that they'd NEVER take it to that level. That that was only there to protect them in extreme cases.
Then the NEXT board got elected. Guess what. Not only are they enforcing all the "the HOA may choose to regulate" clauses (which means the HOA could choose to , or choose not to regulate these issues) -- but they've interpreted other vaguely written clauses in ways they've never been interpreted before..
Now - obviously I would never (in the future) get myself into this sort of situation again. How will I do that? By making sure I am no where near an HOA. From what I've seen, each board can interpret the regulations as they see fit - unless the regs are written very clearly. Maybe some communities are written that way - but most of the ones I've seen are similar to my communities - very vaguely written - essentially giving the HOA control of every single thing outside the walls of your house (if they choose to enforce them)
Similarly - some others are complaining that their regs are not being enforced enough. Obviously there problem wasn't not reading the regs before buying, it was again - the enforcement of the regs is different than they were led to believe.
that's why I don't trust HOA's. Cities and townships (at least where I come from) - if they interpreted their laws differently under each new administration would get into huge trouble. HOA's seem to be agove that. They are not regulated by any governmental body. They can take a lien against my home for something like the fact that I refuse to mow weekly. Not - I don't mow and my lawn is a mess. No, I mow every 2 weeks because mowing more than that is a waste of fuel/energy.
So... I realize some people like HOA's. Good for them. For a lot of us who wanted to be very involved in the OUTSIDE of our house and our property, HOAs have proven to be nothing but a headache - and many of us who have learned our lesson will avoid them at all costs in the future.
Briolat21---so can you explain what so far they have done that personally affected you (disapproved of your furniture etc?)--I'm just trying to understand if they are choosing just to look at it and make sure it's not broken old lawn chairs--or if they are extreme and don't like something because it isn't a certain brand or color?
It is often the case that CC&Rs are written with broad and vague clauses that the HOA "may regulate" thus and so.
But that normally requires regulations which are approved by the board and are specific.
If you don't like them there is almost always a path to get together a petition and put it to a member vote.
That is the problem with governments...if the people don't participate bad things happen.
And if the board bugs you run. Get on the board and stop the silliness.
It has been my experience with most HOAs that the problem is that nobody will serve. So the Board belongs to the few who will who may well be those who don't have anything better to do.
It has been my experience with most HOAs that the problem is that nobody will serve. So the Board belongs to the few who will who may well be those who don't have anything better to do.
This is another thing that needs to be emphasized to anyone considering purchasing in an HOA neighborhood - if you like the rules as they are and are willing to abide by them, you still need to know that they can change due to Board action (depending on how they're written, of course), and you'll need to stay involved with the HOA to some degree if you don't want that to happen.
Thing is, most people, when buying a home, are looking to do just that - buy a home. When you look at the percentage of registered voters who actually vote in national, state, and local elections (and the percentage of people who are qualified to vote who actually register, come to that), you can see that running things to this degree isn't high on most people's agendas when they have already full lives and are just looking for a place to live. Add the old 80/20 rule (20% of the people do 80% of the work - anyone who's ever worked for any organization as a volunteer will understand that one) and the problem is compounded, so people end up finding that the rules have changed out from under them when all they wanted was the American dream, a home of their own in which and with which to do what they want, legally.
Blaming people for not being on the Board and then complaining about what the Board does isn't reasonable. If it were, then there should be no need for Boards (or Congress, come to that), because the only solution to what you're blaming them for would be for the Board to consist of every member of the community and for no changes to be permitted without the express agreement of the members of the community by vote. Not really that bad an idea, come to think of it. At least the Board would have to notify the entire community via ballot of what they are attempting to do, and they would have to put up a good enough reason for it to convince a majority of the community that it's a good idea.
As to affecting me personally, once I have jumped through the hoops, the CURRENT people on my HOA have been relatively rational. However, I worry that at any time (like the next election), the rational people will recede.
Why do I not run? Like others mentioned - I moved into this community to 1) have a place to live and 2) have a yard to garden. Not to become political. And I vote every year, every election - thanks very much. I also have ATTENDED every HOA meeting, since it formed.
Do I have time to run? No. Like most people between work and a very complicated home life involving caring for my elderly parents - I do not have time to be on these boards and do a good job. I think the people who are currently on the board are doing the best they can under the circumstances and so do NOT have a problem with them personally.
What I do have a problem with is all the people who *virtually* "nod wisely and say "should have read the documents!" as though to suggest all of us who are unhappy were idiots who got into a situation we didn't understand.
I read them. I asked about them. I even asked about the clauses that are now 'causing me pain. I was told those clauses were just put in "to protect the developer" and that they'd never been bothered with. Then *presto* the developer turns the HOA over to the community and *bam*.
My HOA CAN approve/disapprove your lawn furniture. Your BBQ grill and location. What you plant and where you plant it.
My problem is they will not SPELL out what is / is not allowable. And like many HOAs there is an "out" clause where they say "every decision is case by case and does not set precedent". So, conceivably - my neighbors could be given approval to plant a tree, and then I could ask under the exact same situation - and be denied. Or vice versa.
I do not like that. I have very lovely lawn furniture. It is all brand new, aluminum, with cushions. That does not matter. I do not want to ask for approval for it (its in my back yard, NO ONE should ever be in my back yard but me and my husband). I have pressed the HOA several times on "it says you MAY choose to regulate these items - are you going to" -- they will not give me a straight answer.
SO either you ask for approval for everything "I have a weed I want to pull, is that okay?" - which is a hassle. Or you run the "risk" that a neighbor with a grievance (the first 6 months of the HOA has been neighbors settling scores with other neighbors) will "turn" you in.
Now I realize that a lot of people who are worried about how their neighbors lives will affect their own think that HOAs are great.
But for a certain population of people, myself and husband included, they are nightmares.
Where I come from, people live civilly with one another. If you do not like their choice in shrubs, you simply deal with it. Where I live now, if you do not like their shrubs, or their number of cars, or the way they look at you - you file some imaginary complaint with the HOA. The HOA, instead of realizing these are nusciance complaints putting them in the middle of unhappy neighbors, then goes out and makes everything more complicated.
My HOA does not allow satellite dishes. Never mind that there is a legal precedent that they cannot BAN them. So 80% of my community is in non-compliance over that. The legal precedent has been mentioned, but the HOA will not remove the ban from the CCR.
Joggers complained that we hadn't trimmed around trees after mowing. From there we ended up with a 30 item work list that the HOA came up with. None of these things are "IN" the CCRs - but since the CCRs give the HOA such a broad lattitude, I don't dare challenge them. Most of them are little items - but seriously, does the HOA need to regulate that I "move peonies" before Nov. 1? Or that rather than simply "trim around flower beds" it has become "install edging around flower beds". We did the trimming in one afternoon - however installing edging is expensive and TIME consuming. If we fail to comply, we can be fined, or eventually LIENED. Sorry - its ridiculous.
I know that there are a lot of great people here who are for HOAs. I get that. I am neither a malcontent, nor a derelict, nor an uneducated person - which is what being in the "anti-HOA" camp seems to brand you. I simply expected to live in a neighborhood where EGREGIOUS changes to the neigborhood character (like my neighbor deciding to put up a cell tower) would be prevented. Not a neighborhood where my choice of a juniper would elicit a 60 minute discussion, or the act of putting a shovel into the ground would label me a trouble maker, or where neighbors would join factions against one another. (There are pro -tree people and pro-lawn people). Egregious means "no 20ft pink dragon in a permanent installation in the front lawn". What I got is "every house must harmonize (which we will not define for you but you'll know if we disagree) with its neighbors forever and ever. Oh - and they'll define "neighbors" on a varying basis so sometimes its "immediate neighbors" sometimes its neighborhood, sometimes its a vague reference to a feeling they refer to.
Basically I feel that all control over the entire outside of my property has been taken away from me. I would have chosen a condo - had that been my desire. Instead I purchased and am taxed on a lovely single family home with an acre of land that I now have to fight to enjoy.
In fact we were told we must get approval to remove a bush from our tree line. A bush that cannot be distinguished from other bushes and is not visible from the street or from our neighbors houses. A bush that they would NEVER KNOW we removed, had I not casually mentioned the intention.
Enough. I humbly agree to disagree with those of you who are pro-HOA. For those who are not - I sympathize with your issues! For those who are *Thinking* of moving to an HOA community but feel uncomfortable - listen to your gut, it will not necessarily get better.
As to affecting me personally, once I have jumped through the hoops, the CURRENT people on my HOA have been relatively rational. However, I worry that at any time (like the next election), the rational people will recede.
Why do I not run? Like others mentioned - I moved into this community to 1) have a place to live and 2) have a yard to garden. Not to become political. And I vote every year, every election - thanks very much. I also have ATTENDED every HOA meeting, since it formed.
Do I have time to run? No. Like most people between work and a very complicated home life involving caring for my elderly parents - I do not have time to be on these boards and do a good job. I think the people who are currently on the board are doing the best they can under the circumstances and so do NOT have a problem with them personally.
What I do have a problem with is all the people who *virtually* "nod wisely and say "should have read the documents!" as though to suggest all of us who are unhappy were idiots who got into a situation we didn't understand.
I read them. I asked about them. I even asked about the clauses that are now 'causing me pain. I was told those clauses were just put in "to protect the developer" and that they'd never been bothered with. Then *presto* the developer turns the HOA over to the community and *bam*.
My HOA CAN approve/disapprove your lawn furniture. Your BBQ grill and location. What you plant and where you plant it.
My problem is they will not SPELL out what is / is not allowable. And like many HOAs there is an "out" clause where they say "every decision is case by case and does not set precedent". So, conceivably - my neighbors could be given approval to plant a tree, and then I could ask under the exact same situation - and be denied. Or vice versa.
I do not like that. I have very lovely lawn furniture. It is all brand new, aluminum, with cushions. That does not matter. I do not want to ask for approval for it (its in my back yard, NO ONE should ever be in my back yard but me and my husband). I have pressed the HOA several times on "it says you MAY choose to regulate these items - are you going to" -- they will not give me a straight answer.
SO either you ask for approval for everything "I have a weed I want to pull, is that okay?" - which is a hassle. Or you run the "risk" that a neighbor with a grievance (the first 6 months of the HOA has been neighbors settling scores with other neighbors) will "turn" you in.
Now I realize that a lot of people who are worried about how their neighbors lives will affect their own think that HOAs are great.
But for a certain population of people, myself and husband included, they are nightmares.
Where I come from, people live civilly with one another. If you do not like their choice in shrubs, you simply deal with it. Where I live now, if you do not like their shrubs, or their number of cars, or the way they look at you - you file some imaginary complaint with the HOA. The HOA, instead of realizing these are nusciance complaints putting them in the middle of unhappy neighbors, then goes out and makes everything more complicated.
My HOA does not allow satellite dishes. Never mind that there is a legal precedent that they cannot BAN them. So 80% of my community is in non-compliance over that. The legal precedent has been mentioned, but the HOA will not remove the ban from the CCR.
Joggers complained that we hadn't trimmed around trees after mowing. From there we ended up with a 30 item work list that the HOA came up with. None of these things are "IN" the CCRs - but since the CCRs give the HOA such a broad lattitude, I don't dare challenge them. Most of them are little items - but seriously, does the HOA need to regulate that I "move peonies" before Nov. 1? Or that rather than simply "trim around flower beds" it has become "install edging around flower beds". We did the trimming in one afternoon - however installing edging is expensive and TIME consuming. If we fail to comply, we can be fined, or eventually LIENED. Sorry - its ridiculous.
I know that there are a lot of great people here who are for HOAs. I get that. I am neither a malcontent, nor a derelict, nor an uneducated person - which is what being in the "anti-HOA" camp seems to brand you. I simply expected to live in a neighborhood where EGREGIOUS changes to the neigborhood character (like my neighbor deciding to put up a cell tower) would be prevented. Not a neighborhood where my choice of a juniper would elicit a 60 minute discussion, or the act of putting a shovel into the ground would label me a trouble maker, or where neighbors would join factions against one another. (There are pro -tree people and pro-lawn people). Egregious means "no 20ft pink dragon in a permanent installation in the front lawn". What I got is "every house must harmonize (which we will not define for you but you'll know if we disagree) with its neighbors forever and ever. Oh - and they'll define "neighbors" on a varying basis so sometimes its "immediate neighbors" sometimes its neighborhood, sometimes its a vague reference to a feeling they refer to.
Basically I feel that all control over the entire outside of my property has been taken away from me. I would have chosen a condo - had that been my desire. Instead I purchased and am taxed on a lovely single family home with an acre of land that I now have to fight to enjoy.
In fact we were told we must get approval to remove a bush from our tree line. A bush that cannot be distinguished from other bushes and is not visible from the street or from our neighbors houses. A bush that they would NEVER KNOW we removed, had I not casually mentioned the intention.
Enough. I humbly agree to disagree with those of you who are pro-HOA. For those who are not - I sympathize with your issues! For those who are *Thinking* of moving to an HOA community but feel uncomfortable - listen to your gut, it will not necessarily get better.
In a perfect fantasy world, all realtors showing houses in an HOA community would be required to hand out to every potential buyer a nicely-formatted flyer reproducing your excellent analysis of the dangers of living in one.
I hope you and your husband can escape and reclaim your privacy with an equally lovely acre and home in a non-HOA community. Thanks for your post.
In a perfect fantasy world, all realtors showing houses in an HOA community would be required to hand out to every potential buyer a nicely-formatted flyer reproducing your excellent analysis of the dangers of living in one.
Too funny.
This paints all HOAs with a broad brush. I live in an HOA that's been around for 40+ years without a single change other than annual assessment which was and remains capped at 5% a year. No way could my HOA dictate my patio furniture or choice of landscape material without a majority vote. Not going to happen.
No two HOAs are alike.
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