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Hey, YOU'RE the one who couldn't understand what I was talking about but felt qualified to contend!
Um, you approached me in this recent conversation. I responded as best I could. If you don't like my opinion or how I arrived at my opinions, nobody is forcing you to engage me. geesh.
For the record, I don't have a bone to pick with anyone who disagrees with me. I'd suggest all but a few within these forums or real life would contend that.
I DO have a bone of contention for people who feign in order to hide behind it, who pretend to understand half a sentence while discarding the other half, as though it's all conveniently separate, neither amalgam nor pieces of a larger puzzle.
It's utterly selective and disengenuous.
Frankly, this doesn't read very differently as you becoming insulted, and as recent posts make clear -wanting to in turn insult, when someone doesn't agree with you. We're (general we) not always going to be on the same page about everything. And that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned, especially when the topic involves negativity.
Okay. I haven't seen that show but have heard good things. I like John Hamm.
I think the soup analogy is very sloppy (men are like vegetable soup? really??), but I understand that you did not write it. You did, however, state that you thought we were "past that."
Blame Matthew Weiner I borrowed what seemed crystal clear to me. The reason I say that 40 years later, some attitudes seem unchanged, is based on comments I have read on City-Data. They read very much like it's 1965.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
I admit that I always wonder about women who say this. I understand that the word means different things to different people, though. Education, career, self-reliance ... are you sure you're not a feminist?
I am not a feminist. I was raised to be self-reliant because my parents (specifically my dad) saw it as a necessity. I was expected to study, get good grades, go to college and get a job. He never talked about boyfriends or husbands. In fact, he discouraged the whole notion.
I would love to have had a partner in my life to alleviate the weight I've carried all these years by myself. If I could do it over, I would have asked my dad to teach me what qualities I needed to bring to a relationship instead learning how to survive without one.
Last edited by queensgrl; 09-22-2010 at 02:18 PM..
Try asking 2Mares -- she seemed to understand it just fine, so I don't think it was my "mushy" example or any of my reasoning and I suspect you're just being purposely obtuse. In fact, I'd say your responses were actually a pretty good example of the very thing of which I was speaking.
To be fair it may very well geographical or cultural. Keep in mind I live in the very pits of the redneck bible belt where the gender lines are still very visible so I am accustom to attitudes that men are expected to act a certain way and women are expected to act a certain way. I do see that there is more acceptance, sympathy or wiggle room (these days)for women who cross these lines, not so much with men. This might not be the case in Braunwyns world.
If Im understanding what is implied by ignoring what men want, it is that today it is accepted that women can fulfill a wide variety of roles, we can be vulnerable and strong, feminine and masculine, SAHMs or CEOs, but men are still ridiculed if they step outside that narrowly defined role. We, I think as a society not just women, do not give men the same support in expanding their roles and it is seen as trivializing. IMO men are actually limiting themselves due to their self perceived weakness. They are upset because women have made it to the point they can take on either or both traditional roles and men cant or wont because most don’t want to or they prevent themselves from it. This leaves both genders frustrated and sometimes not knowing how to deal with each other. I think Braunwyn has just never had to encounter this.
To be fair it may very well geographical or cultural. Keep in mind I live in the very pits of the redneck bible belt where the gender lines are still very visible so I am accustom to attitudes that men are expected to act a certain way and women are expected to act a certain way. I do see that there is more acceptance, sympathy or wiggle room (these days)for women who cross these lines, not so much with men. This might not be the case in Braunwyns world.
If Im understanding what is implied by ignoring what men want, it is that today it is accepted that women can fulfill a wide variety of roles, we can be vulnerable and strong, feminine and masculine, SAHMs or CEOs, but men are still ridiculed if they step outside that narrowly defined role. We, I think as a society not just women, do not give men the same support in expanding their roles and it is seen as trivializing. IMO men are actually limiting themselves due to their self perceived weakness. They are upset because women have made it to the point they can take on either or both traditional roles and men cant or wont because most don’t want to or they prevent themselves from it. This leaves both genders frustrated and sometimes not knowing how to deal with each other. I think Braunwyn has just never had to encounter this.
Maybe it is the region you live in. I live in Alabama and know many men who have stepped outside the traditional roles, and they are not ridiculed. Many are male nurses, stay at home dads, help with the housework, and do anything women can do. Who ridicules them? It could also be generational or the group of people you hang around with. In today's economy most people are doing the best they can to survive, and they don't have time to worry about everyone's role.
To be fair it may very well geographical or cultural. Keep in mind I live in the very pits of the redneck bible belt where the gender lines are still very visible so I am accustom to attitudes that men are expected to act a certain way and women are expected to act a certain way. I do see that there is more acceptance, sympathy or wiggle room (these days)for women who cross these lines, not so much with men. This might not be the case in Braunwyns world.
If Im understanding what is implied by ignoring what men want, it is that today it is accepted that women can fulfill a wide variety of roles, we can be vulnerable and strong, feminine and masculine, SAHMs or CEOs, but men are still ridiculed if they step outside that narrowly defined role. We, I think as a society not just women, do not give men the same support in expanding their roles and it is seen as trivializing. IMO men are actually limiting themselves due to their self perceived weakness. They are upset because women have made it to the point they can take on either or both traditional roles and men cant or wont because most don’t want to or they prevent themselves from it. This leaves both genders frustrated and sometimes not knowing how to deal with each other. I think Braunwyn has just never had to encounter this.
With regard to the "ignoring what men want" -- no, I don't think we're really talking about the things men do to themselves, at least not le roi and I. We're talking about the denigration of men's potential in the wider variety of roles you mentioned BY the outspoken feminists who are seen more widely as the representatives and role models.
I'd try to cite a bunch of media examples but the last time I did this (in a thread about female-on-male violence and societal acceptance and even glorification) the thread was shut down immediately, before page 3 was even complete (while male-on-female violence debates seem to extend interminably, for as long as they've got thread supporters) and when I asked the [female] mod why, her response was "Because I had seen quite enough ugliness for one day." That's a quote and it's the WHOLE quote, not a paraphrase.
That will probably get snipped, in fact.
You're right in that this stuff leaves both genders frustrated; but you're still foisting the blame onto men, removing any female culpability with regard to the matter. Women ARE, maybe, denigrating men or dismissing male concerns, but it's still the fault of men.
Does that make any sense to you? I know humans are illogical creatures, all of us -- but really, does that even make logistical sense to you, even if we dismiss the notion of tactical sense?
With regard to the "ignoring what men want" -- no, I don't think we're really talking about the things men do to themselves, at least not le roi and I. We're talking about the denigration of men's potential in the wider variety of roles you mentioned BY the outspoken feminists who are seen more widely as the representatives and role models.
I'd try to cite a bunch of media examples but the last time I did this (in a thread about female-on-male violence and societal acceptance and even glorification) the thread was shut down immediately, before page 3 was even complete (while male-on-female violence debates seem to extend interminably, for as long as they've got thread supporters) and when I asked the [female] mod why, her response was "Because I had seen quite enough ugliness for one day." That's a quote and it's the WHOLE quote, not a paraphrase.
That will probably get snipped, in fact.
You're right in that this stuff leaves both genders frustrated; but you're still foisting the blame onto men, removing any female culpability with regard to the matter. Women ARE, maybe, denigrating men or dismissing male concerns, but it's still the fault of men.
Does that make any sense to you? I know humans are illogical creatures, all of us -- but really, does that even make logistical sense to you, even if we dismiss the notion of tactical sense?
Please, explain where 2mares says it is the fault of men that men are denigrated or ridiculed.
Please, explain where 2mares says it is the fault of men that men are denigrated or ridiculed.
Quote:
If Im understanding what is implied by ignoring what men want, it is that today it is accepted that women can fulfill a wide variety of roles, we can be vulnerable and strong, feminine and masculine, SAHMs or CEOs, but men are still ridiculed if they step outside that narrowly defined role.
We, I think as a society not just women, do not give men the same support in expanding their roles and it is seen as trivializing. IMO men are actually limiting themselves due to their self perceived weakness. They are upset because women have made it to the point they can take on either or both traditional roles and men cant or wont because most don’t want to or they prevent themselves from it. This leaves both genders frustrated and sometimes not knowing how to deal with each other. I think Braunwyn has just never had to encounter this.
Her whole statement is valid and worth looking at; but the bolded portions, which make up the majority of it, are fairly telling.
Today it is accepted that women can fulfill a wide variety of roles, we can be vulnerable and strong, feminine and masculine, SAHMs or CEOs, but men are still ridiculed if they step outside that narrowly defined role. We, I think as a society not just women, do not give men the same support in expanding their roles and it is seen as trivializing. IMO men are actually limiting themselves due to their self perceived weakness. They are upset because women have made it to the point they can take on either or both traditional roles and men cant or wont because most don’t want to or they prevent themselves from it. This leaves both genders frustrated and sometimes not knowing how to deal with each other.
One of my male friends is very frustrated about gender roles and says that women have taken over male-dominated occupations but that men can't crossover the other way. So I mentioned that my job offers health career training for everyone. I just think he doesn't see it as "man's work."
Maybe things are changing, though. In the hospital today, I saw more male surgical assistants than female ones.
One of my male friends is very frustrated about gender roles and says that women have taken over male-dominated occupations but that men can't crossover the other way. So I mentioned that my job offers health career training for everyone. I just think he doesn't see it as "man's work."
Maybe things are changing, though. In the hospital today, I saw more male surgical assistants than female ones.
This I WILL agree with, and although I don't know how much of it is male-based or female-based or just social-perception based, it's something men should definitely get over.
2mares, when you read this, please understand that with regard to THIS aspect of it we're at least in partial agreement. In fact, I think we agree overall but may be coming from different enough perspectives that there are nuances of mild contention, to which I must say that I guess definitive answers for a question this broad are virtually impossible.
And I say all that as a man who's trying to change careers and head into nursing.
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I borrowed what seemed crystal clear to me. The reason I say that 40 years later, some attitudes seem unchanged, is based on comments I have read on City-Data. They read very much like it's 1965.
