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I think to a certain degree what we consider traditional gender roles is biological and those impulses are still with us today. At least I see it in the dynamic between me and my boyfriend. He seems to have a need to provide and protect. He likes to pick up the tab for dates and he likes to give me gifts. It was uncomfortable for me at first but I see it makes him happy so I graciously accept. He walks on the side of traffic and does other little protective gestures. I thank him for being so considerate.
As for me I feel a need to be a caretaker of sorts. I like to give him massages after work and I like to be the person he comes to and leans on when something is on his mind. I listen to him and let him vent to me. I like that when he comes to me I am able to melt the stress away. He felt bad doing this at first too he felt like he was burdening me but now he sees like his providing giving him pleasure that my care taking gives me pleasure. It makes us both happier when we do these things for each other. And of course what I mentioned are just abfewbthings we do for each other. Examples.
I am just saying maybe you have that same feeling too. I think it's important for women to see that men may have this need and let them fulfill it if it's what they want to do. It's not universal I'm sure as all men are unique. But I think it's there more than we give it credit for.
Actually, I protest when threads support the idea of men doing traditional things like picking up the tab. I think maybe I protest too loudly. That's part of the conflict. I've got what feels like a biological or intuitive need to be a certain way, to be a man in thatb traditional sense, and a culture that tells me that's a construct, and a backward one. So sometimes I is confuse
Actually, I protest when threads support the idea of men doing traditional things like picking up the tab. I think maybe I protest too loudly. That's part of the conflict. I've got what feels like a biological or intuitive need to be a certain way, to be a man in thatb traditional sense, and a culture that tells me that's a construct, and a backward one. So sometimes I is confuse
I think the traditional male gender role only works when the man is with a traditional female gender role woman. Otherwise things are unbalanced. It works for me and my boyfriend because while he does those traditional manly things I also do traditional womanly things. We are a team this way and it works for us. Doesn't mean it's right for everyone of course.
Well this is the intimate relationships forum, so why would MGTOW be here talking about the exact opposite of intimate relationships...?
I was explaining something to someone, was that not obvious to you? Couldn't you weigh that knowledge against your compulsion to speak?
Please don't play words games with me, although you love them. Non-MGTOW folks are here talking the same stuff, too. Like yourself.
Read the title of this thread one more time. Plenty of pages were spent here with non-MGTOW folks debating their understanding of what went on the 1950s.
I've taken time to reply here, but I'll ignore future inane questions such as yours.
If you have problems with how City-Data allows threads and comments, that is between you and the moderators.
Back to the MGTOW topic, I have no respect for the way the men who identify with this group behave, generally. Having said that, I think there is a basis for some of the confusion or angst they feel, totally separate from the obnoxious way they convey that angst.
I think there are two groups of men who are affected negatively by social changes the past 30 years or so. Ohio peasant made a good post a while back about men who are at least somewhat marginal socially and who as a result are struggling mightily with dating. I'm 58, and there was a time, in my lifetime, when some of these men would have married by their late 20s. Some wouldn't have, but the dynamic was less unfavorable to slightly or even moderately awkward men who had even a few redeeming qualities like a decent job and personal stability. Those men typically dated late, only dated a few women, but still married and had a shot at making that work. What's lost on many of the MGTOW crowd is that a woman who married a man like that in 1980 sometimes divorced him by 2000, but that doesn't serve the agenda, except perhaps to point out that women have always been calculating. Their assessment, not mine.
What that man had to offer then had some value. Those same traits, ordinary looks, stable employment and a solidly middle class income, along with a dependable if quirky personality, aren't so valued now. Men who fit that description now are sort of the non trademarked nice guy, meeting the barest of standards in most women's eyes. Again, that women in 1960 or 1975 didn't view those men with any real desire is lost on the MGTOWs. Some MGTOWs are old enough to remember their own greater success, or they saw their fathers or uncles have some success in the past. Others just tune into one of the echo chambers and get inundated with how good things used to be for "solid" men.
Of course, responding to change by really hating it and dragging your feet at every turn is totally self defeating. Shyt changes. You adapt, or you don't and you pay the consequences. I will repeat, things have definitely changed and this subset of men have not done well with the change. It's harsh to say, but that's really only their problem. I'm sympathetic to the men who really are seen as less attractive than they would have been seen several decades ago, but who mostly keep their pain to themselves or who express a genuine disappointment, as opposed to blaming others or throwing tantrums. Some people are on the outside looking in and mostly powerless to change that. Men who deal with their stuff with dignity aren't typically part of MGTOW.
The other group of men who probably see a real change and respond poorly to it are men who have something more going for them, but whose values don't mesh with the times. Some who post here deserve no sympathy because they too go on pointless screeds, or espouse illogical and stifling double standards. These guys want to do something like the traditional sewing their wild oats and then marry someone who kept her oats fresh and pure. Really, guys?
The men who hold themselves to the same standard they hold women to and who simply can't find many women who think like them are sometimes kind of stuck, though. We hear from women here who express the same frustration, or who experienced it in the past before finding a like minded man. While I don't share those values, I respect people who hold to their principles even when they personally struggle while doing so. Back to men, most of these guys do eventually find a like minded woman, but that process often takes longer and is more difficult than it used to be, and so I can understand some frustration with changes that make his life more challenging. When those men let their understandable frustration turn into resentment toward women or society or feminism or anything that isn't the real issue, their choices, then they lose me.
The backdrop to all of this, that women had fewer options in the past and were more dependent on men financially and socially, also seems lost on most of the MGTOW men. When marriage by their early 20s was expected and practically speaking the best option for most women, men who wanted marriage or who struggled socially outside of marriage benefitted. Those days are gone, and good riddance. I find it ironic that men who likely hold pretty traditional values regarding masculinity and probably think of themselves as people who get things done are talking and writing and flouncing off about their concerns, rather than doing something constructive. Doesn't make any fvcking sense.
Because they want people who are interested in intimate relationships to think that it matters that they are going their own way and rejecting relationships. For some reason, they don't seem to realize that no one besides them cares.
You can leave this thread anytime. Notice its title. You can leave this thread at any time instead of hanging around complaining over and over about how you don't care. You and a list of others here, you do just what you criticize MGTOW for doing. That's called hypocrisy. You linger and repeat yourself, as if MGTOW cares. You are here because you want MGTOW to see what you say. This is obvious. You stick around in a MGTOW-themed thread, where MGTOW will be posting, so you can say you don't care about their posts. Every time you and others complain here about how you don't care, you have made your presence known in the thread as a moth who is attracted to the flame. Say it once, then leave and go where you are happier. When you linger, you are party to the problem you define.
There, I've said it a number of ways. Hopefully it will imprint.
Of course, responding to change by really hating it and dragging your feet at every turn is totally self defeating.
You were talking about MGTOW just prior to writing the above so I have to think you are talking about MGTOW in that you seem to say that MGTOW are responding to change by really hating it and dragging their feet at every turn. Hating what happened, yes. Spreading the word, yes. Dragging feet, no. That doesn't fit.
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You adapt, or you don't and you pay the consequences.
In agreement with you, Americans are free to challenge unjust laws and unjust politics. People, to include men, are free to live their lives to their best own possible advantage. If one wants to succumb to what happens to oneself, that is one's choice, but one must accept that not everyone wants that for themselves.
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Some who post here deserve no sympathy because they too go on pointless screeds, or espouse illogical and stifling double standards. These guys want to do something like the traditional sewing their wild oats and then marry someone who kept her oats fresh and pure. Really, guys?
I missed where in this thread you read that double standard of sowing oats, or which group of guys you mean, but it sounds like something someone would say about the old-school masculinity. I don't read that in MGTOW. I have read in MGTOW circles that modern women mistake sexual display for equality, but that's different.
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I find it ironic that men who likely hold pretty traditional values regarding masculinity and probably think of themselves as people who get things done are talking and writing and flouncing off about their concerns, rather than doing something constructive.
Likely? Probably? You hold against these men an irony based on uncertainties of your own creation?
Whoever these men are, you don't know that they are not doing something constructive. You don't know that.
Last edited by sylvianfisher; 02-19-2016 at 01:11 AM..
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
Actually, I protest when threads support the idea of men doing traditional things like picking up the tab. I think maybe I protest too loudly. That's part of the conflict. I've got what feels like a biological or intuitive need to be a certain way, to be a man in thatb traditional sense, and a culture that tells me that's a construct, and a backward one. So sometimes I is confuse
Oh, there is still nothing backwards about it. I mean, I picked up the tab last night, she was like "really? are you sure?" with the credit card out. I was $80 or so, so not a little, not a ton. I said, yeah, I'm sure, I'm having a great time, you can get next time if you'd like to see me again. Second date Monday. Simple. Nice. Fun. She's definitely not a traditional type, and I know from her job she earns in the realm of $40k more than I do, it's still a nice gesture.
The backdrop to all of this, that women had fewer options in the past and were more dependent on men financially and socially, also seems lost on most of the MGTOW men. When marriage by their early 20s was expected and practically speaking the best option for most women, men who wanted marriage or who struggled socially outside of marriage benefitted. Those days are gone, and good riddance.
This is somewhat true but is NOT completely true. Yes, many women these days have better jobs than in the past, are in many cases financially less dependent on men, etc. So, yes, these women don't need to get married to some guy to be financially secure - since they're already financially secure.
However, there are still women out there who are unemployed or under-employed, are in financial debt, etc. who ARE looking for a sugar daddy with $ to marry so that they can live comfortably. This does still happen. This is why you sometimes see attractive women coupled up with fat slobs. You think these women would in the relationship/marriage if the guy DIDN'T have money?! Hell no.
Broke men do the same thing as well - i.e., in some cases they somehow hook up with financially successful women - I've seen this too (but it's less common).
This is also why it's extremely important for both men & women - who have money - to make sure that a pre-nup is in place before marriage (as I've mentioned in other threads).
Last edited by The Big Lebowski Dude; 02-19-2016 at 06:52 AM..
This is somewhat true but is NOT completely true. Yes, many women these days have better jobs than in the past, are in many cases financially less dependent on men, etc. So, yes, these women don't need to get married to some guy to be financially secure - since they're already financially secure.
However, there are still women out there who are unemployed or under-employed, are in financial debt, etc. who ARE looking for a sugar daddy with $ to marry so that they can live comfortably. This does still happen. This is why you sometimes see attractive women coupled up with fat slobs. You think these women would in the relationship/marriage if the guy DIDN'T have money?! Hell no.
Broke men do the same thing as well - i.e., in some cases they somehow hook up with financially successful women - I've seen this too (but it's less common).
This is also why it's extremely important for both men & women - who have money - to make sure that a pre-nup is in place before marriage (as I've mentioned in other threads).
It really depends on the circumstances. In most states, assets you have entering a marriage and things like inheritances are off the table in a divorce if you don't co-mingle assets. I'm 57. My real estate, investments, savings, and retirement accounts remain mine if I remarry and subsequently get divorced. It's only wealth that is added on during the marriage and assets that you co-mingle that are in play. For me, a prenup wouldn't protect much beyond what is already protected where I live.
So it's important to understand divorce law where you live and to look at it closely before you move. Some states don't work that way.
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