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The only times I've dated someone I wasn't physically attracted to, was when I was going through a dating service. I was trying to concentrate and like the personality, even though I wasn't physically attracted to them. It didn't work. and other then those 2, all the guys I've dated were handsome. At least in my opinion.
I've dated men I didn't find physically attractive at first. But later as I got to know them, and sorta fell in love with them from the inside out, they became more and more "beautiful" physically in my own eyes.
My present boyfriend is very much an example of this.
When we first met, I didn't think he was ugly, but I didn't think he was hot stuff either. His looks neither repelled me, nor attracted me. He looked like somebody's Dad. Not mine, but somebody's. He was a solid "maybe" at first. Which is probably why things moved relatively slowly for us, but it all turned out perfect in time.
I actually avoid good looking men. They have reaped the benefits of their looks and it is often very apparent in how they carry themselves, their glibness, and their sense of privilege. In general I believe attractive people are more likely to rest on their "laurels" and feel less need to develop other parts of themselves like personality, knowledge, etc. It's not true in every case but it's the very first thing I assess. No one gets by on looks alone with me.
I tended to avoid the kind of men who relied on their looks, "status" and charm to attract women, with little substance, and very surface level qualities. But I didn't turn down or avoid all conventionally attractive men if they were about more than their looks and charisma. I think my husband is very easy on the eyes, but it was apparent early on that there's so much more to him than his physical appearance.
Looks are an important criteria for a man in considering a woman.
Of course different men define beauty differently. A woman who is gorgeous to one man is ugly to another, and vice versa. But she must be good looking in HIS eyes, in some manner, particularly in the beginning, preferably for the duration.
I've never met a (heterosexual) man who could honestly tell me that looks weren't important at all, nor in fact one who would admit they were less than one of the top two or three factors, and usually the #1 most important.
Actually, correction...I have a second observation that I consider to be a near-constant. Every woman I've ever met was openly or secretly critical and/or insecure in some way about her appearance. Even the ones who seem to be stunning and know they are stunning, to all outside appearances...there is a fragile side that is quietly worried they have some flaw that is ruining it or that other women look better or that they don't look good enough.
In my experience, looks are initially important for everyone, both men and women. That may change with time and exposure, but it seems to remain true for the initial encounters, depending upon who is approaching and/or interested in whom, etc.
Now, it remains true (for some, clearly not all) that given the aforementioned time and exposure, how someone views the other person's physical appearance may become secondary, with respect to charm, wealth, sense of humor, etc.
The bottom line is that I can no more see a woman's "kind, wonderful soul" across a room than she can mine. There has to be an initial attraction IF we're talking about an approach scenario.
In a non-approach scenario, men and women meet, get to know at least somewhat, and become attracted to others all the time: sapiosexuals meeting people at parties who turn out to be intelligent, even if less physically attractive, or people who are turned on by laughter finding out someone not overtly attractive is really funny (to just name a couple).
For my part, I may be initially attracted to a woman on a physical level, but no matter her looks, it's the personality that makes or breaks the attraction. While people are charmed and delighted by stories of "ugly ducklings" who become beautiful in the eyes of those who get to know their inner beauty, nobody wants to admit or accept the tales of those who turned out to be ugly inside and thus became ugly in the eye of the beholder. I have been both lauded and booed by folks who cannot grasp that the coin has two sides. Meh, whatever. *shrug*
Honestly, I've seen few sex-based differences. Most seem to be quite personal in nature and cross the sexual boundary pretty easily.
If I have to observe any sex-based difference in the dating game, it lies with dating advice and cross-gender observations by women.
In groups, women will stick together, side with women against men. We're most any variety of swine and deserve scorn.
In private, women will tell men about how other women cannot be trusted, what "other women are really like," and how they're not like all the rest (i.e., you can't trust other women, but you can trust them).
It's a hoot, but I see/hear it again and again when it comes to dating or romantic advice.
Last edited by Urban Sasquatch; 10-19-2017 at 02:04 PM..
Reason: I hate finding a typo. It will keep me up at night for years, haunting me endlessly until I die.
I think most of the other generalizations and stereotypes... There are enough examples that validate them, so they exist for a reason, and you can bear them in mind so that you can recognize what's happening when it's happening, but there are also so very many exceptions that I can't quite call them "rules." I can't even begin to speculate on what percentage of men or women do or don't reflect those qualities.
I know a guy who has spent most of his adult life more or less homeless but he's so cute he gets women to take him in and provide for him. They do tend to get tired of it eventually, but he's made a lifestyle of this. Those women knew what they were getting into with him, they didn't think he had money secretly stashed away, so there are plenty of us who have other things on our minds besides money.
Oddly, while I can acknowledge men I think are visually attractive, I fail to be actually ATTRACTED to them. I simply don't want them, even if I like to look at them, unless they draw me with something else. The "something else" factor could be things that make them unusual or unique, things they say, common interests, talent, intellect...but it's never looks. I've never been one to find dates at bars or the like, so how I pick who to approach is not a matter of spotting someone, it's a matter of casting a broad net by talking to many people and then seeing who I connect with best.
As for feelings... In my experience as a woman, it's not that I will automatically catch feels after sex, even good sex, it's more that if sex happens then there is a CHANCE that I might catch feelings, it seems very much out of my hands and out of my control, and it strikes very randomly. But there's certainly a turning point after sex, a crossroads...some, there is a feeling of disconnect and I never want to be intimate with them again. Some there is a feeling of connection where I want to continue to have them in my life.
Personally I feel I cannot control my emotions, they simply happen, but I can (and feel obligated to) control what I say or do regardless of what my emotions are prompting me to. I cannot be held accountable for feeling love for a person, it isn't something I can just tell myself not to feel. I can control the choice to express it in any way.
My thinking is that men are more inclined to control their feelings (most of the time) or at least believe they can, but once they feel something, then they behave as though they are justified in acting upon it whether it's wise or not. As in, "I couldn't help it" for sleeping with a woman they felt drawn to, or punching someone who made them angry. I think that self-control is just more ingrained and expected in women, over our actions if not our feelings. And men are expected to control their feelings, but not always their actions. I don't know if this is due to social programming, or biology or what.
I just had to point out, because apparently I must spread "the love" some more, that I really, really like this post. I've seen much of what you have observed in both sexes.
In my experience, looks are initially important for everyone, both men and women. That may change with time and exposure, but it seems to remain true for the initial encounters, depending upon who is approaching and/or interested in whom, etc.
Now, it remains true (for some, clearly not all) that given the aforementioned time and exposure, how someone views the other person's physical appearance may become secondary, with respect to charm, wealth, sense of humor, etc.
The bottom line is that I can no more see a woman's "kind, wonderful soul" across a room than she can mine. There has to be an initial attraction IF we're talking about an approach scenario.
In a non-approach scenario, men and women meet, get to know at least somewhat, and become attracted to others all the time: sapiosexuals meeting people at parties who turn out to be intelligent, even if less physically attractive, or people who are turned on by laughter finding out someone not overtly attractive is really funny (to just name a couple).
For my part, I may be initially attracted to a woman on a physical level, but no matter her looks, it's the personality that makes or breaks the attraction. While people are charmed and delighted by stories of "ugly ducklings" who become beautiful in the eyes of those who get to know their inner beauty, nobody wants to admit or accept the tales of those who turned out to be ugly inside and thus became ugly in the eye of the beholder. I have been both lauded and booed by folks who cannot grasp that the coin has two sides. Meh, whatever. *shrug*
Honestly, I've seen few sex-based differences. Most seem to be quite personal in nature and cross the sexual boundary pretty easily.
If I have to observe any sex-based difference in the dating game, it lies with dating advice and cross-gender observations by women.
In groups, women will stick together, side with women against men. We're most any variety of swing and deserve scorn.
In private, women will tell men about how other women cannot be trusted, what "other women are really like," and how they're not like all the rest (i.e., you can't trust other women, but you can trust them).
It's a hoot, but I see/hear it again and again when it comes to dating or romantic advice.
I'm happy to see you too, Urban Sasquatch! I remember enjoying a lot of your contributions.
That thing you mention about women trash talking other women to men in private, the whole "I don't like women, they are this and that, but not me I'm different" thing... I have known men to do the exact same thing. Talk bad about how "men are" in one way or another, but expect a woman to believe he is the magical exception (who she probably needs to protect and champion her from all the rest, of course!) I've seen this behavior for a few reasons. Like if the woman is complaining about men and how they have treated her or things she's read or seen online or in the news, and her SO agrees that all men are pigs, but he's not. I've seen men who claim to be feminists do this. Or they say "not all men" but what they really are trying to say is, "Most or all but not me." The second scenario is a man who is very insecure or even some kind of psychological abuser, who is trying to isolate his partner by manipulating how she sees the opposite sex. If she distrusts all the other men, so much the better for him, she will stay away from them and give him no cause for worry that she'll cheat.
My ex did the second thing.
And I think some women do the first thing, because they assume the guy they are with doesn't respect women, and she wants to say, "You're right, I don't think women deserve respect. That's why I'm not like most women." Instead of fighting the bigger picture of a man who doesn't really like or respect women, she can let that lie and just try to argue that she's special and more worthy. One of the guys, even!
I see anything like this as a possible red flag, and I definitely speak against it, at least by saying I think people is people, some are great and some not so much, gender hasn't got anything to do with it.
I'm happy to see you too, Urban Sasquatch! I remember enjoying a lot of your contributions.
That thing you mention about women trash talking other women to men in private, the whole "I don't like women, they are this and that, but not me I'm different" thing... I have known men to do the exact same thing. Talk bad about how "men are" in one way or another, but expect a woman to believe he is the magical exception (who she probably needs to protect and champion her from all the rest, of course!) I've seen this behavior for a few reasons. Like if the woman is complaining about men and how they have treated her or things she's read or seen online or in the news, and her SO agrees that all men are pigs, but he's not. I've seen men who claim to be feminists do this. Or they say "not all men" but what they really are trying to say is, "Most or all but not me." The second scenario is a man who is very insecure or even some kind of psychological abuser, who is trying to isolate his partner by manipulating how she sees the opposite sex. If she distrusts all the other men, so much the better for him, she will stay away from them and give him no cause for worry that she'll cheat.
My ex did the second thing.
And I think some women do the first thing, because they assume the guy they are with doesn't respect women, and she wants to say, "You're right, I don't think women deserve respect. That's why I'm not like most women." Instead of fighting the bigger picture of a man who doesn't really like or respect women, she can let that lie and just try to argue that she's special and more worthy. One of the guys, even!
I see anything like this as a possible red flag, and I definitely speak against it, at least by saying I think people is people, some are great and some not so much, gender hasn't got anything to do with it.
We call those Nice Guys™. They're "not like those bad boys and tall, super handsome dudebros." They paint themselves to be the better alternative to "most other guys" when, in actuality, only the exterior is different, all else remains the same. They can be just as douchey and dangerous, but worse, because they can hide it with their "nice" and non-assertive/arrogant behavior and personality.
I'm happy to see you too, Urban Sasquatch! I remember enjoying a lot of your contributions.
That thing you mention about women trash talking other women to men in private, the whole "I don't like women, they are this and that, but not me I'm different" thing... I have known men to do the exact same thing. Talk bad about how "men are" in one way or another, but expect a woman to believe he is the magical exception (who she probably needs to protect and champion her from all the rest, of course!) I've seen this behavior for a few reasons. Like if the woman is complaining about men and how they have treated her or things she's read or seen online or in the news, and her SO agrees that all men are pigs, but he's not. I've seen men who claim to be feminists do this. Or they say "not all men" but what they really are trying to say is, "Most or all but not me." The second scenario is a man who is very insecure or even some kind of psychological abuser, who is trying to isolate his partner by manipulating how she sees the opposite sex. If she distrusts all the other men, so much the better for him, she will stay away from them and give him no cause for worry that she'll cheat.
My ex did the second thing.
And I think some women do the first thing, because they assume the guy they are with doesn't respect women, and she wants to say, "You're right, I don't think women deserve respect. That's why I'm not like most women." Instead of fighting the bigger picture of a man who doesn't really like or respect women, she can let that lie and just try to argue that she's special and more worthy. One of the guys, even!
I see anything like this as a possible red flag, and I definitely speak against it, at least by saying I think people is people, some are great and some not so much, gender hasn't got anything to do with it.
It doesn't surprise me to hear men do this as well in private, although I would have to say that in my own experience, it's often women offering these opinions on other women quite unsolicited.
That's definitely NOT to say men aren't often doing the same thing.
It's a tough call with the "not all men." I consider myself a man, and have often said "Not all men" with regard to some male generalization a woman has made, and with which I mostly disagree. But I've seen a few manipulators too, much as you describe. I've also known women I most definitely do not lump in with "the pack." So yes, exceptions all around, and also those POSING as exceptions.
Sift the chaff for the grain, sift the sand for the gold, alas, alas...
Red flags go up, if a date trash talks an ex wife on a first or second date. I don't want to have to wade through anyone's bitterness.
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