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I always find it fascinating that those longing for the good old days are almost universally male. As has been noted before, the good old days were only good for a very select male portion of the population.
This year is my first time ever using OLD and outside of the years that I was in a relationship the entire year, 2018 has turned out to be my best year ever! (Note that I started dating before OLD was invented.) I attribute this solely to OLD, nothing changed except OLD.
The decline in marriage is likely the result of the social changes you cite. However I do not see it as a good thing for society at all. In fact it moves us closer to the world of animals in regards to social structure and mating habits. In the animal world only the strongest males mate, most males are rejected or drive off by these strong males. The rejected males are constantly making violent challenges to these dominant males in order to usurp and replace them. Monogamy goes out the window here if the same small group of males are mating with all the females. In the animal world the males rarely take interest in their offspring, that burden falls upon the female. The difference between humans and animals is we have developed complicated societies and moral structures to prevent this sort of animalistic behavior.
All those in our society who seek to “end the patriarchy” or “stop they misogynists” don’t think about what may replace our social order if they upend everything our social and family structures have been for thousands of years. Marriage and family structures provide us with a stability that only humans have. Marriage is an important institution and any trend that weakens or defiles it is a great harm to civilization.
No. It's good for things to be upended. It's good for things to change. Especially these things. We'd be much better off as a society if we removed the marriage model all together, in my opinion. Let people marry only if it means something to them on a spiritual or personal level. Let's teach people to be strong, independent, happy solo and good members of their communities. Let's accept everyone equally, even if they choose to be alone forever, choose to be with multiple people, choose to marry or choose a life of kinky debauchery. Let's accept that there isn't one right way to live and there never has been.
Whether you like it or not, people are opening their minds. We are realizing that society can't tell us what to do, and we're no longer bending to social pressure. That's why more people are refusing to have kids now too. It used to be looked down upon. Maybe it still is. We don't care. There are enough people in the world now, and enough connection via the internet, that we all can do what we want and still find plenty of people out there who will agree with our way of life and love/support us. And that's all we need.
Also, the burden of raising children has always fallen on the woman. If anything, men are more involved today than ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan123
I always find it fascinating that those longing for the good old days are almost universally male. As has been noted before, the good old days were only good for a very select male portion of the population.
No. It's that women have better economic prospects, more cultural freedom, and a wider selection of potential mates than at any other point in history. This has led to new options that most women haven't had before. They don't have to get married right out of school in order to secure their economic future and "proper" place in society and culture. They can raise their bar and wait for someone to top it, engage in less serious or less permanent relationships, focus on their careers or lives and not date (or date for casual sex). They're able to be more selective about their romantic choices than at any other time. Increased selectivity means more instances of guys not being selected, which means some guys get rejected more, and for longer portions of their lives.
That's their nugget of truth.
Like I do see your point. Sort of.
But what I also know, not just from my own behavior and thinking, but from lots and lots of human connections to draw lots of anecdotal information from... Is that men project way, way too much when they get upset about this. Men are drawn to good looking women. So they ASSUME that the main reason that a woman is into a man, is that he's good looking. Or something equally superficial. He says that it's just nature and biology when HE is choosy and he cannot help it, it's how he's wired, he's "visual" and so on...but if women were even doing this to the extent that men were, it's "hypergamy" and we get to hear about that OKCupid "study." Which was bad science plain and simple, but I won't get into it here.
So I remember before the internet and after the internet. I turned 18 in 1997. There have ALWAYS been lonely people who couldn't get a date. Always always. It's just that now, everyone is online, getting fed a steady diet of "You're not alone! There are so many others just like you! So it's not your fault, this is a whole THING that affects MANY and it's those OTHER PEOPLE who are to blame!" The internet gave us that. Before, people just kept quiet, felt like freaks, like the loneliest guy in the world, maybe took up drinking.
A lot of our problems aren't new, it's just that how visible they are, is new.
But you know what sorta blows my mind, is that given what you describe here and the fact that women can afford to be more selective and all...guys behave SO badly. Seriously. I guess it's a thing I just described in another thread, it's easier to sabotage yourself and guarantee a certain failure, that try for an uncertain success. It's how they take control of something that's not really in their control (another person's choice)...they cannot make it be yes, but they can sure make it be no! There were plenty of guys I would have considered going on dates with, my spectrum for acceptable looks was really wide, and my minimum thresholds on other factors weren't a super high bar really...but if they sounded like jerks either in their profile or in a message, as so many did, I was all "nope!"
If things are shifting in a negative direction in big ways...well, I'm reading "Bradshaw on The Family" right now, and it would have plenty of interesting causes to explain this. There are a lot of people walking around, who are "adult children" or the walking wounded from broken or dysfunctional families, carrying unprocessed loads of multigenerational trauma. This makes for a lot of BAD relationships, and for the fact that some people cannot attract romantic interest at all. I mean, let's face it, that violent incel poster boy, Mr. R, he was not an ugly young man. He had money. He had some stuff going for him. He was just obviously, clearly, frighteningly insane. I'm pretty sure he came off as a jackarse to anyone he talked to. But such a person does not realize when this is the case, when this is the problem.
Yup, and mostly its the introverted males that somehow think that just by existing and having a job they would have been a catch since they could have been a "provider".
I could see how the "good old days" may have been better for some men who were just introverted but who earned a good income, as some young women would eventually be forced to settle for them after trying and failing to woo more extroverted young men who were decent economic prospects. But the OP has Asperger's, anxiety and depression issues, is mildly physically handicapped, and has no work history whatsoever at age 26. In "the good old days" the only males who could get away with no work history at all by age 26 were the ones who went straight from high school into college and from there directly into medical school or law school. A future doctor or attorney might qualify as a "good catch" despite the lack of a work history, but the OP? HA!
Fortunately for the OP, today young men are viewed as more than just wallets with legs. So at least he has a chance, if he can meet the right young woman.
No. It's good for things to be upended. It's good for things to change. Especially these things. We'd be much better off as a society if we removed the marriage model all together, in my opinion. Let people marry only if it means something to them on a spiritual or personal level. Let's teach people to be strong, independent, happy solo and good members of their communities. Let's accept everyone equally, even if they choose to be alone forever, choose to be with multiple people, choose to marry or choose a life of kinky debauchery. Let's accept that there isn't one right way to live and there never has been.
Whether you like it or not, people are opening their minds. We are realizing that society can't tell us what to do, and we're no longer bending to social pressure. That's why more people are refusing to have kids now too. It used to be looked down upon. Maybe it still is. We don't care. There are enough people in the world now, and enough connection via the internet, that we all can do what we want and still find plenty of people out there who will agree with our way of life and love/support us. And that's all we need.
Also, the burden of raising children has always fallen on the woman. If anything, men are more involved today than ever.
Yes.
Change is not always good and I disagree with everything you have said. “Remove the marriage model”? Marriage has been the foundation of the family for thousands of years. Are you telling me the social reformers of the so called “progressive “ millennial generation know better than 6000 years of tradition and civilization that has come before them? Hogwash. Encourage debauchery? I hope you are kidding.
We should not be “open minded” to things that are destructive or are morally wrong. I fear for the future when I read posts like the one I am replying too. I truly hope these types of views are not as common in the wider world as they seem to be here in CD land.
Yup, and mostly its the introverted males that somehow think that just by existing and having a job they would have been a catch since they could have been a "provider".
Change is not always good and I disagree with everything you have said. “Remove the marriage model”? Marriage has been the foundation of the family for thousands of years. Are you telling me the social reformers of the so called “progressive “ millennial generation know better than 6000 years of tradition and civilization that has come before them? Hogwash. Encourage debauchery? I hope you are kidding.
We should not be “open minded” to things that are destructive or are morally wrong. I fear for the future when I read posts like the one I am replying too. I truly hope these types of views are not as common in the wider world as they seem to be here in CD land.
Yes I'm serious. And you don't get to be the one who dictates what is "morally wrong" for other people. How is anything I said "morally wrong?" Someone being into kink doesn't make them a bad person. Someone being polyamorous doesn't make them a bad person. And so on...
You're saying what you're saying, but you're not really saying why you believe what you're saying. Something having been done for a long period of time doesn't make it the better or moral way. There are a lot of things that were done and accepted for long periods of time that are very much NOT okay (slavery, etc).
There is no reason that people would need traditional marriages to have families. Families come in all shapes and sizes. People should marry if they want to, but there's no reason to push it on society in general.
Yes I'm serious. And you don't get to be the one who dictates what is "morally wrong" for other people. How is anything I said "morally wrong?" Someone being into kink doesn't make them a bad person. Someone being polyamorous doesn't make them a bad person. And so on...
You're saying what you're saying, but you're not really saying why you believe what you're saying. Something having been done for a long period of time doesn't make it the better or moral way. There are a lot of things that were done and accepted for long periods of time that are very much NOT okay (slavery, etc).
There is no reason that people would need traditional marriages to have families. Families come in all shapes and sizes. People should marry if they want to, but there's no reason to push it on society in general.
Why do I believe the things I do? I believe in God and the Bible, I believe in tradition and order. I believe upending society the way you suggest would damage the social order in a severe way. Families are held together by marriage. I believe it is sad that you believe promiscuous lifestyles are ok. I also find it sad that you believe marriage is some kind of negative institution designed to keep women down. Without marriage what will bind people together? Will baby daddy’s replace the family? Will one night stands replace what marriage can give? Will promiscuous behavior make people happier than belonging to a family? What will happen to society when everyone is just out for a good time? If this is the way western civilization is going then western civilization has a very short future. I don’t believe the Eastern world is infected with this type of thinking, maybe they will be the leading civilization when we dissolve in our decadence and social decay.
So they ASSUME that the main reason that a woman is into a man, is that he's good looking. Or something equally superficial. He says that it's just nature and biology when HE is choosy and he cannot help it, it's how he's wired, he's "visual" and so on...but if women were even doing this to the extent that men were, it's "hypergamy" and we get to hear about that OKCupid "study." Which was bad science plain and simple, but I won't get into it here.
So I remember before the internet and after the internet. I turned 18 in 1997. There have ALWAYS been lonely people who couldn't get a date. Always always. It's just that now, everyone is online, getting fed a steady diet of "You're not alone! There are so many others just like you! So it's not your fault, this is a whole THING that affects MANY and it's those OTHER PEOPLE who are to blame!" The internet gave us that. Before, people just kept quiet, felt like freaks, like the loneliest guy in the world, maybe took up drinking.
The apppearance fixation isn't all projection. I'd agree with anyone who says that women are hit more with societal expectations of what their appearance should be, but there's an undercurrent for men to be aesthetically pleasing. Fat, bald, and short come up frequently. Here's an example that predates the internet, a Dilbert strip that's surprisingly pertinent in many ways, including a reference to the president and the drift that women resent being made to feel like they "owe" undesirable men anything. It made a strong impression on me when I read it in high school: https://dilbert.com/strip/1991-01-13
For me, I assume the vast majority of men have something I don't. I can make guesses: good looks, engaging personalities, swoon-worthy skillsets, lively conversational skills, interesting lives and hobbies, healthy self-confidence. I have none of those. Appearance is a factor but I've always tried to word my responses here to include other potential traits that are mentioned as being desirable. I've worked on the ones that are improvable but they're not natural to me and I suspect they will always come off as superficial, which I know means they're transparent. What's left of me, what strengths I do have...just aren't enough to work for me in terms of making me attractive and desirable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But you know what sorta blows my mind, is that given what you describe here and the fact that women can afford to be more selective and all...guys behave SO badly. Seriously. I guess it's a thing I just described in another thread, it's easier to sabotage yourself and guarantee a certain failure, that try for an uncertain success. It's how they take control of something that's not really in their control (another person's choice)...they cannot make it be yes, but they can sure make it be no! There were plenty of guys I would have considered going on dates with, my spectrum for acceptable looks was really wide, and my minimum thresholds on other factors weren't a super high bar really...but if they sounded like jerks either in their profile or in a message, as so many did, I was all "nope!"
Why do I believe the things I do? I believe in God and the Bible, I believe in tradition and order. I believe upending society the way you suggest would damage the social order in a severe way. Families are held together by marriage. I believe it is sad that you believe promiscuous lifestyles are ok. I also find it sad that you believe marriage is some kind of negative institution designed to keep women down. Without marriage what will bind people together? Will baby daddy’s replace the family? Will one night stands replace what marriage can give? Will promiscuous behavior make people happier than belonging to a family? What will happen to society when everyone is just out for a good time? If this is the way western civilization is going then western civilization has a very short future. I don’t believe the Eastern world is infected with this type of thinking, maybe they will be the leading civilization when we dissolve in our decadence and social decay.
If "belonging to a family" will make people happier than "promiscuous behaviour" , then that is what people will choose to do. After all, people like to be happy.
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