On Monogamy and 'The Discussion' (dating, women, love, dance)
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I'm a 35 yo woman, never had 'the discussion' before ("let's be monogamous") as it always seemed quite..organic. However it appears to be a requirement now, my feeling is it is often used as a legal loophole for behavior that should otherwise just be expected. In other words here is my current situation, wondering if I an out of line or not for feeling distrustful.
Met a guy a couple years back at bar, he clearly liked me and asked for my number. He was cute and nice enough so I said yes, no realy attraction per se. Also as a caveat I had not dated for a few years then as I was handling a lot of family and career issues so was jusssst beginning to poke my head out.
Anyway he was pretty persistent asking me out, finally I said yes. Nice enough date, we shared a couple kisses.
He texted me the next day how much he liked me and wanted to start dating me. I told him I was not ready for dating or relationship given the point in my life I was at, which was partially true and also a) I did not feel that strongly about him yet and b) I was concerned about how fast he'd taken to me and didn't get the feeling it had anything to do with me per se.
We kept in touch, texting, he was fairly persistent even then. At some point we started casually seeing each other, light sex, etc. The pattern was pretty much me being clear I was not ready to date or have a relationship and might in fact be moving out of the city, him being pretty consistent about pushing for more, a future, etc. On one hand I found it annoying that he ignored my wishes on the other hand it was flattering and I got that he wanted something either with me or at least with someone so could not hold it against him if I was engaging with him socially, emotionally and physically. I did NOT expect that he was not dating. I am very giving sexually so I know he was enjoying that :|
Fast fwd a bit, we are gettting closer, he gets a new apt and makes a copy of his keys and says I'd like you to feel free to come and go and make yourself at home. We have one day of great sex, especially when he pulls out a sex toy he has discussed in the past and he says he never used it either on himself or with anyone before. I'm not trying to get graphic, only to share that we shared a very intimate time and shared something I thought was special together. Before I left he showed me two drawers in his bedroom that he had emptied out and said he wanted me to start bringing my things over and keeping them there, and he wanted me to start staying over and taking it to the next level.
Because we were growing closer and because I was starting to trust his feelings for me were genuine and about me not just anyone, I started to let down my guard. I even shopped online for a neglige to share with him our next time.
So. I bring it to him, we are engaged again with his... toys... and he says something that makes it clear he has used the very same thing recently in the two weeks since we were together.
I was floored. After finally getting me to be truly inimate with him and sharing something I thought was special, two days later he is having sex with another woman in the apartment he said I should feel free to come and go from, in the bedroom he has cleared room out for me in, in the bed he wants me to stay ove r in that weekend, with the toys he said he said he felt comfortable enough for the first time ever to share with me just a few days prior.
His reply is that I said I didn't want a relationship, and until I said or say I want to be in a committed one with him he can do anything he wants. And I don't disagree "on paper". I get it. I've kept him at arms lenght, at least with words. But as he did not accept that distance and given what we had shared, to me I shouldn't have to say 'let's not see anyone else'. I mean clearly that conversation could be formalized, but if he actually wanted such an initimate exlclusive relationship with me, then after having that experience wouldn't the last thing he'd want to do is share that place, that room, that bed, those toys, his body, and his intimacy with someone else?
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word and that without an explicity promise everything is fair game; I think fidelity is about what you want to GIVE not just GET.
I'm sure I'll get a lof of 'you got what you deserved' by not opening up sooner and perhaps I did but still would love to hear other girls (and guys) take on this.
You said, "Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word..." What do you mean by this? Because neither of you gave your "word" to pretty much anything.
By "old-fashioned" you mean you wanted to have the freedom to assume that things were whatever you wanted them to be, without bothering to talk about it? Here's the real deal. You got the feeling he was getting invested in you, before you opened up enough to be invested with him. Which means you felt you had the power. And assumed that he was dancing to your tune and yours alone. You held him off and played "hard to get" until you felt you had the hook really, truly set. The game, however, has now backfired on you. Because you made your assumptions, now you're finding that he made some assumptions of his own. Such as, "I can sleep with anybody I want and don't have to ask any kind of permission, since she has no real claim on me." A state of affairs you brought about, by telling him so many times that you were not down for a real relationship.
I've been around the block more than a few times, and let me tell ya... I have known people who were clear communicators, and people who preferred to play games and dance around the unspoken and assume things. And people who were SCARED by clear attempts to communicate. I've been in the briefest of flings and a long committed relationship and many varying interactions along the spectrum in between. And in my experience, assumptions, games, and not communicating...it's a recipe for suffering. It sucks. It can lead to someone controlling the other with their expectations of "how this works." It can lead to miscommunication and misunderstanding. It is SO much better, to grow up enough to talk, even if the talking is uncomfortable, so that everyone knows where they stand.
And nowadays, people have the freedom to try and structure their relationships in whatever ways work for THEM, not just what society says they should do. By operating as though there are unspoken rules people "should have known" without discussing it, you are saying "Everyone should do what I think they should. My own set of rules should be followed, with no consent or conversation, by everyone I play with." That isn't how this works.
And frankly, it's kind of silly to say that you are an "old-fashioned" gal, and yet also say that you are sexually open and have been having sex with him without any commitment and while telling him you don't even want a relationship. That's not old fashioned. And I would defend your right to engage in connections with your partners in any way that you choose...but not if you aren't going to talk to them about it. You didn't give him the chance to consent to having only one partner. He didn't give you the chance to consent to sharing him. You both simply failed to communicate. No matter how progressive or "old-fashioned" no one is a mind reader, you know?
Hey I get most of that. But I was not in fact 'setting any hook'. Mostly I was pretty sure that he was not in fact 'invested' in me. If he had just been cool with me from the start being reticient to commit and just see where things went I think I might have been cooler about it. My issue I think is that from the start i did not 'buy' that his strong desire to be with me, vs being 'in a relationship' were real. So, again, I do not "fault" him or think he broke any word to me. I get all that. However, I did take his actions (share my keys, move yourself in, start staying over, share this thing with me I've never shared with anyone else) as actual signs he wanted ME not just SOMEONE. Which is when I started to actually 'vest' myself. So do I get that a week later he could do what he wants with who he wants? Sure. I just don't really get WHY. if the roles were reversed, I'd be on cloud 9 that the guy was finally coming around, that we'd share such a personal intimacy and that my place was starting to become his. I don't think I'd really care to or think about now inviting someone else in. My goal was not to 'set a hook' or 'control him' or to be 'in power'; it was to, as I started opening myself up to dating again, see if this was really about me or just the first girl to come along. His actions still don't really clarify that for me. Is it the first one of us to say "I want to be your one and only?" Because frankly, that is not the one and only I want to be.
I'm a 35 yo woman, never had 'the discussion' before ("let's be monogamous") as it always seemed quite..organic. However it appears to be a requirement now, my feeling is it is often used as a legal loophole for behavior that should otherwise just be expected. In other words here is my current situation, wondering if I an out of line or not for feeling distrustful.
Met a guy a couple years back at bar, he clearly liked me and asked for my number. He was cute and nice enough so I said yes, no realy attraction per se. Also as a caveat I had not dated for a few years then as I was handling a lot of family and career issues so was jusssst beginning to poke my head out.
Anyway he was pretty persistent asking me out, finally I said yes. Nice enough date, we shared a couple kisses.
He texted me the next day how much he liked me and wanted to start dating me. I told him I was not ready for dating or relationship given the point in my life I was at, which was partially true and also a) I did not feel that strongly about him yet and b) I was concerned about how fast he'd taken to me and didn't get the feeling it had anything to do with me per se.
We kept in touch, texting, he was fairly persistent even then. At some point we started casually seeing each other, light sex, etc. The pattern was pretty much me being clear I was not ready to date or have a relationship and might in fact be moving out of the city, him being pretty consistent about pushing for more, a future, etc. On one hand I found it annoying that he ignored my wishes on the other hand it was flattering and I got that he wanted something either with me or at least with someone so could not hold it against him if I was engaging with him socially, emotionally and physically. I did NOT expect that he was not dating. I am very giving sexually so I know he was enjoying that :|
Fast fwd a bit, we are gettting closer, he gets a new apt and makes a copy of his keys and says I'd like you to feel free to come and go and make yourself at home. We have one day of great sex, especially when he pulls out a sex toy he has discussed in the past and he says he never used it either on himself or with anyone before. I'm not trying to get graphic, only to share that we shared a very intimate time and shared something I thought was special together. Before I left he showed me two drawers in his bedroom that he had emptied out and said he wanted me to start bringing my things over and keeping them there, and he wanted me to start staying over and taking it to the next level.
Because we were growing closer and because I was starting to trust his feelings for me were genuine and about me not just anyone, I started to let down my guard. I even shopped online for a neglige to share with him our next time.
So. I bring it to him, we are engaged again with his... toys... and he says something that makes it clear he has used the very same thing recently in the two weeks since we were together.
I was floored. After finally getting me to be truly inimate with him and sharing something I thought was special, two days later he is having sex with another woman in the apartment he said I should feel free to come and go from, in the bedroom he has cleared room out for me in, in the bed he wants me to stay ove r in that weekend, with the toys he said he said he felt comfortable enough for the first time ever to share with me just a few days prior.
His reply is that I said I didn't want a relationship, and until I said or say I want to be in a committed one with him he can do anything he wants. And I don't disagree "on paper". I get it. I've kept him at arms lenght, at least with words. But as he did not accept that distance and given what we had shared, to me I shouldn't have to say 'let's not see anyone else'. I mean clearly that conversation could be formalized, but if he actually wanted such an initimate exlclusive relationship with me, then after having that experience wouldn't the last thing he'd want to do is share that place, that room, that bed, those toys, his body, and his intimacy with someone else?
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word and that without an explicity promise everything is fair game; I think fidelity is about what you want to GIVE not just GET.
I'm sure I'll get a lof of 'you got what you deserved' by not opening up sooner and perhaps I did but still would love to hear other girls (and guys) take on this.
"You said, "Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word..." What do you mean by this? Because neither of you gave your "word" to pretty much anything."
I mean this; fidelity is not just about being true to your WORD. It isn't about not having sex with other people that you want to because you promise not to. It is about wanting to be with that other person only. I don't mean never looking around and finding anyone else attractive, I mean that you are faithful because you want so share yourself with one other person, not because you want to share yourself with MANY people but promise someone else you won't. Fidelity is as much about being true to yourself as it is to someone else. If I'm promising a man I won't have sex with other men and I want to (not just in an offhand fantasy way but WANT to) than I am with the wrong man and that word is not worth anything as it is at odds with what I truly want.
His reply is that I said I didn't want a relationship, and until I said or say I want to be in a committed one with him he can do anything he wants. And I don't disagree "on paper". I get it. I've kept him at arms lenght, at least with words. But as he did not accept that distance and given what we had shared, to me I shouldn't have to say 'let's not see anyone else'. I mean clearly that conversation could be formalized, but if he actually wanted such an initimate exlclusive relationship with me, then after having that experience wouldn't the last thing he'd want to do is share that place, that room, that bed, those toys, his body, and his intimacy with someone else?
If he was trying to be a player and bring other women into his bed I doubt he would have cleared drawers for you and opened up his home in the way he did. (another woman isn't going to appreciate seeing your undies hanging in the bathroom) Could he have told you he was intimate with someone else so that you would get jealous and agree to become exclusive?
Like it or not, you have to be clear and let people know what it is you want. If you can clearly state that you don't want a relationship, why can't you do it the other way around? I don't understand that. Not everyone goes by "unwritten rules," plus you SAID you didn't want a relationship in the beginning. So would it really be unreasonable for him to assume that you would eventually let him know when you were ready for one?
You really need to examine how you handle things here and pay attention to the dynamic of the relationship. Stop assuming and start actually communicating verbally. Sex is not an "agreement" for monogamy. Not for everyone. People are not mind readers. From what you've written, he was very clear about what he wanted, you weren't.
I'm a 35 yo woman, never had 'the discussion' before ("let's be monogamous") as it always seemed quite..organic. However it appears to be a requirement now, my feeling is it is often used as a legal loophole for behavior that should otherwise just be expected. In other words here is my current situation, wondering if I an out of line or not for feeling distrustful.
Met a guy a couple years back at bar, he clearly liked me and asked for my number. He was cute and nice enough so I said yes, no realy attraction per se. Also as a caveat I had not dated for a few years then as I was handling a lot of family and career issues so was jusssst beginning to poke my head out.
Anyway he was pretty persistent asking me out, finally I said yes. Nice enough date, we shared a couple kisses.
He texted me the next day how much he liked me and wanted to start dating me. I told him I was not ready for dating or relationship given the point in my life I was at, which was partially true and also a) I did not feel that strongly about him yet and b) I was concerned about how fast he'd taken to me and didn't get the feeling it had anything to do with me per se.
We kept in touch, texting, he was fairly persistent even then. At some point we started casually seeing each other, light sex, etc. The pattern was pretty much me being clear I was not ready to date or have a relationship and might in fact be moving out of the city, him being pretty consistent about pushing for more, a future, etc. On one hand I found it annoying that he ignored my wishes on the other hand it was flattering and I got that he wanted something either with me or at least with someone so could not hold it against him if I was engaging with him socially, emotionally and physically. I did NOT expect that he was not dating. I am very giving sexually so I know he was enjoying that :|
Fast fwd a bit, we are gettting closer, he gets a new apt and makes a copy of his keys and says I'd like you to feel free to come and go and make yourself at home. We have one day of great sex, especially when he pulls out a sex toy he has discussed in the past and he says he never used it either on himself or with anyone before. I'm not trying to get graphic, only to share that we shared a very intimate time and shared something I thought was special together. Before I left he showed me two drawers in his bedroom that he had emptied out and said he wanted me to start bringing my things over and keeping them there, and he wanted me to start staying over and taking it to the next level.
Because we were growing closer and because I was starting to trust his feelings for me were genuine and about me not just anyone, I started to let down my guard. I even shopped online for a neglige to share with him our next time.
So. I bring it to him, we are engaged again with his... toys... and he says something that makes it clear he has used the very same thing recently in the two weeks since we were together.
I was floored. After finally getting me to be truly inimate with him and sharing something I thought was special, two days later he is having sex with another woman in the apartment he said I should feel free to come and go from, in the bedroom he has cleared room out for me in, in the bed he wants me to stay ove r in that weekend, with the toys he said he said he felt comfortable enough for the first time ever to share with me just a few days prior.
His reply is that I said I didn't want a relationship, and until I said or say I want to be in a committed one with him he can do anything he wants. And I don't disagree "on paper". I get it. I've kept him at arms lenght, at least with words. But as he did not accept that distance and given what we had shared, to me I shouldn't have to say 'let's not see anyone else'. I mean clearly that conversation could be formalized, but if he actually wanted such an initimate exlclusive relationship with me, then after having that experience wouldn't the last thing he'd want to do is share that place, that room, that bed, those toys, his body, and his intimacy with someone else?
Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word and that without an explicity promise everything is fair game; I think fidelity is about what you want to GIVE not just GET.
I'm sure I'll get a lof of 'you got what you deserved' by not opening up sooner and perhaps I did but still would love to hear other girls (and guys) take on this.
So-o-o-o....."casually seeing each other, light sex" does not fit your definition of dating?
Hopefully you can see how you'd been sending him mixed signals all along.
IDK, OP; it seems like you boxed yourself into this. Yes, it's weird that he made gestures conveying the idea that you should move in, while he was also "entertaining" other women. But you'd been protesting loudly that you weren't ready for dating, while......dating him, and having sex with him.
Next time, say what you mean, and mean what you say, and keep your actions consistent with your words.
That's all I got, here. IDK why someone would date and have sex with someone they're not interested in, and don't want to date. Hopefully someone else here can be more helpful.
"You said, "Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word..." What do you mean by this? Because neither of you gave your "word" to pretty much anything."
I mean this; fidelity is not just about being true to your WORD. It isn't about not having sex with other people that you want to because you promise not to. It is about wanting to be with that other person only. I don't mean never looking around and finding anyone else attractive, I mean that you are faithful because you want so share yourself with one other person, not because you want to share yourself with MANY people but promise someone else you won't. Fidelity is as much about being true to yourself as it is to someone else. If I'm promising a man I won't have sex with other men and I want to (not just in an offhand fantasy way but WANT to) than I am with the wrong man and that word is not worth anything as it is at odds with what I truly want.
If you were telling him all along you didn't want to date, but were giving him your goodies anyway, why would you think he wasn't assuming you were "not dating" (wink, wink) other guys, too? How would he know? He's not a mind-reader.
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Unless it only involved straps, I'd be pretty put off.
