Are There Any "Absolutes" In Moral Behavior? (Israel, worship, Commandments)
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Weak argument though. Other Catholics did staff concentration camps. And protestants too. Just because you do not have a desire to do something does not mean that others sharing your faith will not do that thing.
... and Buddhists did it too, and Muslims too, and Jewish too ... And atheists - they more than any other group.
... and Buddhists did it too, and Muslims too, and Jewish too ... And atheists - they more than any other group.
Considering the fact that atheists are a minority of pretty much any population, I think that you are wrong on this. You simply would not have enough atheists available to run a good concentration camp.
Does "USSR" or "People Republic of China" or "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" ring a bell?
Absolutely. They are communist countries that brutally suppressed religion.
But that does not mean that the people in the countries were atheists. The average man on the street was not happy about the suppression of religion, and cannot realistically be listed as an atheist.
Let me put it to you this way. If the US were to become an officially atheist country tomorrow, would you become an atheist? Or would you be a christian in an atheist country?
Absolutely. They are communist countries that brutally suppressed religion.
But that does not mean that the people in the countries were atheists. The average man on the street was not happy about the suppression of religion, and cannot realistically be listed as an atheist.
Let me put it to you this way. If the US were to become an officially atheist country tomorrow, would you become an atheist? Or would you be a christian in an atheist country?
The folks who established the camps were atheists, and atheists did staff those concentration camps.
So, can we say those camps were Atheist Concentration Camps? I don’t think so.
Hi Lisa,
The Bible does seem to ignore any sort of moral judgement on slavery, yet it is one of the few things that all seem to universally agree is immoral. Why is the bible so silent on it?
I don't totally agree about the Bible ignoring a moral judgement on slavery. When God & Moses led the Israelites out of the bondage of Egypt, wasn't a moral judgement effectively being made? God wanted the slavery of the Israelites to end, and the pharaoh didn't. Which of them was acting on a moral basis and which one wasn't? Moses was working to end slavery and God insured that "right had enough might" to accomplish the job.
Sounds like a parallel similar to the Union fighting to end slavery during the Civil War, doesn't it?
You're not suggesting that God was advocating freedom for the Israelites for anything other than for moral reasons, are you? And they became His chosen people from which the establishment of monotheistic principles arose.
I don't totally agree about the Bible ignoring a moral judgement on slavery. When God & Moses led the Israelites out of the bondage of Egypt, wasn't a moral judgement effectively being made? God wanted the slavery of the Israelites to end, and the pharaoh didn't. Which of them was acting on a moral basis and which one wasn't? Moses was working to end slavery and God insured that "right had enough might" to accomplish the job.
Sounds like a parallel similar to the Union fighting to end slavery during the Civil War, doesn't it?
You're not suggesting that God was advocating freedom for the Israelites for anything other than for moral reasons, are you? And they became His chosen people from which the establishment of monotheistic principles arose.
And Joseph was sold into slavery. And Exodus and Deutoronomy are filled with rules as to how one should treat slaves. The 10 commandments are silent on the subject of slavery.
This sounds much more like slavery is an accepted fact in the bible.
I am in fact suggesting that the slavery issue in the bible is one more evidence that the bible is simply a myth. If slavery is abhorrent to god, why did he only choose one people to lead out of it? Why did he let them be enslaved in the first place?
Slavery resulted from the spoils of war, and when a group was militarily weaker and conquerable through war, then slavery was considered to be very humanitarian and preferable to being put to death.
And then there is the New Testament concept that those who are last on Earth will become first in heaven. Implying that there are heavenly rewards for earthly pain and suffering.
God specifically chose the Israelites so that He could reveal and prove His existence to them, and eventually pass that fact on to the rest of the world so that He could begin to establish the guiding moral principles that he intended for mankind in the future. You know, readying His kingdom on Earth for who would eventually be coming, Jesus Christ the Messiah.
But first he had to begin monotheism and institute His 10 Commandments right?
It didn't happen overnight since He led them through the desert for 40 years first.
It also showed that in a way, we are all slaves to a powerful God that has a will greater than any human's ability to overcome it. It shows that He chooses who He wants to have a personal relationship with, and what the nature of that relationship will be.
You have a right to not believe the ancient history of the Israelites, but they are an ancient people with a very real history. And the concept of there being one real God that could prove His physical existence to the world was revolutionary and mind boggeling. Do you suppose the Israelites were hallucinating or making this all up, about the slavery and the Egyptians too?
That's why the miracles of Christ were revolutionary too, because something was physically proven that changed how people viewed the world and would act in it, forever.
Seriously now, wouldn't you agree that the world was changed for the better?
Is it better to not believe anything at all, or maybe worship idols, or admit the possibility that there's a real God that has proven Himself by performing real miracles throughout history?
I've been soooo reluctant to even post here again. But this slavery thing just kills me. It's so typical to find one thing, try and dance on it, and when the music changes, you'll pick something else.
Every example of the slavery issue you use is from the Old Testament, the Law, EXCEPT those of you knowledgeable about the teachings on slavery in the New Testament which I don't really see the correlation. Yes there are teachings on slavery in the New Testament but in EVERY case except one, the directive is that the believer is the slave, not the slave owner. So what is your point?? The New Testament teaches me that if I am under authority, I should treat that person a certain way. I AM THE SLAVE IN THESE EXAMPLES!!! That exception I mention is in Ephesians and it's where there are instructions for believing slaves and believing owners and it basically says "Look, we're all under Christ, so we're all under His authority, the cross leveled the field for us all." Is it Galatians that tells that there's no difference between slave and free under Christ? I can't help but think that it was rare for a believer to have a slave, there is, after all, only one example that I know of.
Now I'm trying to keep this short because I really don't think anyone reads the long ones. But let me close by addressing the Old/New stance I take. Let me say, for those that don't understand, CHRIST CHANGED EVERYTHING!! Now those hard lined legalists will say "No, He said he didn't come to change the law but to fulfill it." OK, if I make you a promise and then I 'fulfill' the promise, what condition is the promise now? And, in fact, the same Bible that holds that verse holds this one, "Christ is the end of the law " Romans 10:4, so don't bring me legalism and also, don't bring me free license, but that's another thread, I'm sure.
So, if you want to argue a Christian stance on slavery, please argue it in the light of Christ. I'm not saying the Old Testament doesn't have a place in Christianity, I'm just saying that the Old Testament, particularly when you look at law which is what you ALL are doing, you must look at it through Christ. Otherwise, it's like me saying you condone slavery because you're American and at one time those same types of laws were on our very own books.
When the law was ENDED (Read:Christ) the law was put away. Doesn't that make sense? And I'm not really asking that question to Christians. I'm not asking that you accept the validity of Christ or God or anything else, I'm just saying that IF that's true, does that help with this whole slavery thing?
<names removed as irrelevant>, I respect all of your opinions and regard you as obviously knowledgeable folks. I post solely for your consideration.
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