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No! Really! I vaguely remember walking like this once! Especially the part where I jumped to impress the females! Musta worked, huh, 'cause here I am, with offspring!
Youbetcha yah! A repressed memory no doubt! Eureka! Alzo.....
Not really sure why this is such big news, bonobos have been observed doing this forever.
Not sure if that proves Darwinian evolution. First of all, I am not sure the apes have the skeletal structure for prolonged standing on two feet. Just like you or I could stand and walk on all fours we won't be able to get too far, would we?
"Proof positive that noted scientists also evolve!"
Upon the encounter of subject at the Object scientist's Object would have to dominate the subject. That would doubt the courage to Create.
As always, tgnostic, your words stun and amaze us all. Insight beyond your image no doubt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV
Not sure if that proves Darwinian evolution. First of all, ..
(snipp'd...)
The Darwinian evolution breaks down at the molecular level. How would this ape's DNA change so that it's offspring is mostly bipedal?
You don't understand Evolution's mechanisms then do you? It doesn't presume the ape's DNA will change after he learned to do it (that's obviously not genetically possible, and no-one ever said it is. Where did you get that silly idea?). He's already demonstrating a possible mutation and predisposition in his apparent ability to easily walk this way, perhaps more comfortably than his less flexible and thus burdened brethren could. It could also signal some enhanced intellectual superiority in this particular individual. Another feather in his Evolutionary cap. Not all apes, nor men, are created intellectually equal, right? Give 'em credit when they've earned it.
Obviously, this "uprightness" will potentially afford him some physiological advantage, which he will pass on to his offspring if it truly is already in his genes. A tribe, a race, even just a few offspring, who can then "perambulate" faster, see further, perhaps defend themselves better from attackers. Even intimidate their rivals without having to physically fight.
Quite the advantages, huh? And all just because of a possible minor physiological mutation in the structure & layout of his hip bones.
See how it works? You just had it backwards. Ain't Evolution wonderful?
(It is important to note that the evidence shows that man did NOT evolve from these types of apes. Rather, both we and they evolved from an earlier pre-ancestor. Don't make that classic but errant mistake; it only makes such claimants look, well, not well ed-jah-kaytud!)
As always, tgnostic, your words stun and amaze us all. Insight beyond your image no doubt!
You don't understand Evolution's mechanisms then do you? It doesn't presume the ape's DNA will change after he learned to do it (that's obviously not genetically possible, and no-one ever said it is. Where did you get that silly idea?). He's already demonstrating a possible mutation and predisposition in his apparent ability to easily walk this way, perhaps more comfortably than his less flexible and thus burdened brethren could. It could also signal some enhanced intellectual superiority in this particular individual. Another feather in his Evolutionary cap. Not all apes, nor men, are created intellectually equal, right? Give 'em credit when they've earned it.
Obviously, this "uprightness" will potentially afford him some physiological advantage, which he will pass on to his offspring if it truly is already in his genes. A tribe, a race, even just a few offspring, who can then "perambulate" faster, see further, perhaps defend themselves better from attackers. Even intimidate their rivals without having to physically fight.
Quite the advantages, huh? And all just because of a possible minor physiological mutation in the structure & layout of his hip bones.
See how it works? You just had it backwards. Ain't Evolution wonderful?
(It is important to note that the evidence shows that man did NOT evolve from these types of apes. Rather, both we and they evolved from an earlier pre-ancestor. Don't make that classic but errant mistake; it only makes such claimants look, well, not well ed-jah-kaytud!)
Let me ask you something. Is this ape demonstrating something that other apes can't do? Or is it showing something that other apes have not been *observed* doing?
Oh.. and I'm not sure if you are the expert in evolution, but this site explains evolution as folllows: How does evolution work?
Quote:
Evolution is a process in which life is shaped by the environment it lives in. All living things have genes, which act as their blueprints. Over time, genes spontaneously mutate, causing changes in individual organisms. If those changes allow the organism to bear more offspring than others of its species and the mutations happen in genes which are passed on, then more and more organisms will start to bear those genes over time. As many generations pass, the organisms might become entirely different from what they once were.
Again, the OP stated that a walking ape is a glimpse into the evolution. I'm not sure that it's the right observation, just as a grown human walking on all fours is not a glimpse into the evolution either, right? These could be just freaks.
As I understand it, for apes to be bipedal, they need to have a different skeletal structure similar to humans.
Btw, I'm a big fan of Michael Behe. I recoomend that you check out his "Darwin's Black Box" book.
As always, tgnostic, your words stun and amaze us all. Insight beyond your image no doubt!
You don't understand Evolution's mechanisms then do you? It doesn't presume the ape's DNA will change after he learned to do it (that's obviously not genetically possible, and no-one ever said it is. Where did you get that silly idea?). He's already demonstrating a possible mutation and predisposition in his apparent ability to easily walk this way, perhaps more comfortably than his less flexible and thus burdened brethren could. It could also signal some enhanced intellectual superiority in this particular individual. Another feather in his Evolutionary cap. Not all apes, nor men, are created intellectually equal, right? Give 'em credit when they've earned it.
Obviously, this "uprightness" will potentially afford him some physiological advantage, which he will pass on to his offspring if it truly is already in his genes. A tribe, a race, even just a few offspring, who can then "perambulate" faster, see further, perhaps defend themselves better from attackers. Even intimidate their rivals without having to physically fight.
Quite the advantages, huh? And all just because of a possible minor physiological mutation in the structure & layout of his hip bones.
See how it works? You just had it backwards. Ain't Evolution wonderful?
(It is important to note that the evidence shows that man did NOT evolve from these types of apes. Rather, both we and they evolved from an earlier pre-ancestor. Don't make that classic but errant mistake; it only makes such claimants look, well, not well ed-jah-kaytud!)
Evolution had something to do with Greek Philosophy, at least the pre-socratics, coming to be and passing away. You should be accusing me of marxist materialism. These pre-even-Parmenideans were the original materialists of naivete and simplicity.
Actually Parmenides claimed that the same thing exists for thinking and being; but could it be in each separate potential of human individuality orwas and did it after all Need the conscience to passing Necessity of our times?
Let me ask you something. Is this ape demonstrating something that other apes can't do? Or is it showing something that other apes have not been *observed* doing?
Oh.. and I'm not sure if you are the expert in evolution, but this site explains evolution as folllows: How does evolution work?
Again, the OP stated that a walking ape is a glimpse into the evolution. I'm not sure that it's the right observation, just as a grown human walking on all fours is not a glimpse into the evolution either, right? These could be just freaks.
As I understand it, for apes to be bipedal, they need to have a different skeletal structure similar to humans.
Btw, I'm a big fan of Michael Behe. I recoomend that you check out his "Darwin's Black Box" book.
Evolution is a slow process, and yes, it does involve spontaneous mutation of genes, through well-documented processes of allele decay, the dropping or miss-creation of one DNA molecule, translocation errors, insertion of new DNA, which throws the entire subsequent chain and sequence off (there are, however, correction sets down the line to limit the damage...).
But you seem to want to suggest that we Evolutionist scientists claim this particular ape's semen would suddenly show some change-of-the-day, and thus he would have "evolved". That's silly, and simply not how it works.
In fact, as I very clearly said, he may just have been carrying a genetically based propensity for upright walking. Perhaps it even hurts him, or causes subsequent lower back or hip joint pain, but he may nonetheless still enjoy the sensation, for the advantages I pointed out, and so he performs the process. Then, later, he may very well pass on this "propensity", this genetically ingrained or created behavior, and over time, other supporting mutation events can occur that will help assert or embed this particular advantage.
This creates a "positive genetic vector", a concept I wrote a peer-reviewed scientific paper on once. Specifically, a single minor mutational change creates a pathway, an advantage that other changes that may have occurred but remain dormant suddenly become facilitated. We all have a large number of unused, dormant or unnecessary alleles within our DNA. some are from old co-joined organism carry-overs, some are just non-lethal mutations, etc. But suddenly, a particular genetic "unveiling" allows some other capabilities full rein, and a new lineage takes off with startling velocity. In a particular direction. Hence, velocity and direction equals a "vector". A lot of this was seen in the Cambrian Explosion, an event that still took multi-millions of years, but in comparison to the previous evolutionary epochs, it was very high-speed indeed. A lot of things just came together, in a relative hurry!
You have to be very careful about your sources of information on Evolution. There's a whole lot of it out there, and, particularly if it's in the Anti-evolution websites, is obviously grossly inaccurate, or uses mis-quotes or purposeful mis-information, to mis-lead you into incorrect beliefs.
What; you think a devout, fervent anti-Evolution website is going to provide you with the truth about it? So, trusting that source really doesn't make very good common sense, does it? Agreed? It's simple: no matter what the topic (toaster performance, cars, cooking or religion) , if you're biased, you're biased. Right?
I'll take a look at your link.
__________________________
(Later...) This information, though overly simplified, is essentially correct. It also makes my point, exactly. Chance mutations can offer a minor advantage that an organism's offspring then take advantage of. The ape in question may well be exhibiting behavior inherited from one of his parents, or one of theirs, etc. So he's only making the case that such things are passed down. Who said he was the first demonstrator of this behavior after all?
Anyhow, this OP's case may or may not be Evolution at work. The OP was, to some degree, just having fun to be sure. Our ape may just be enjoying sensation despite the possible back-ache consequences. Apes are remarkable mimicers, and have a highly evolved and curious brain. This guy may just be having fun. Or... he may be evolving. We're all transitionals, after all; our genetics are ALWAYS mutating and therefore subject to real-world testing. That's the simplest demonstration on ongoing Evolution there is: it simply cannot now be refuted. And, for the fervent dis-believers out there, if they are courageous enough to come on down, we can easily demo this in the modern DNA mapping lab, even with your's and your own immediate family's DNA.
Finally: a brief comment on the subject of Darwin, the anti-Evolutionist's most despised (I'd call it "feared"...) individual. Darwin had not even a beginning inkling on exactly how what he so clearly observed could be happening. His insight was to document it and it's obvious results, to think about it (since it ran so strongly against the ingrained religious teachings he'd believed in for so long), and to simply speculate there was obviously some sort of process there.
Of course, as with all proven-correct hypotheses (then we call them "theories" BTW...), we would predict there was some mechanism(s) that would allow for occasional changes, their testing in the real world, their ability to take advantage of niche openings, and a way to reliably memorialize, and then reproduce, those changes so as to improve the breed. Over time reproductive isolation ensured those changes would be carried on. And by golly, guess what we did find? DNA, tRNA, etc. etc. observed mutations, transitionals between types of species; precisely the tools and mechanisms necessary to achieve this remarkable outcome.
This was certainly not Darwin's "fault" or error in thinking! (How callous and unthinking!) It was only his incredible insight and determination in the face of suppression and ridicule from... who else? The Church of course. And that continues to this day. Despite that Darwin's been proven to be so very right. Hmmm... exactly what does that say about the Church's intellectual honesty, BTW?
This is the simple, unavoidable concept of Evolution, and the only reason it (and proofs of an ancient earth, and of a non-geocentric universe, etc. etc.) are so fervently and ardently fought by Christians is that it steps so hard on the neck of their greater biblical God-Jesus mythology. Otherwise, like lithium Ion batteries, LED HD TVs, freeze-dried foods and moon landings, they have happily accepted all that science. Evolution's been more than proven now, and yet they still fight it tooth and nail, to their deaths if necessary, because it will, and has (esp. for people like me) killed religion in our lives once and for all.
Enjoy the day, and always.... remain open-minded my friend!
Last edited by rifleman; 02-01-2011 at 11:28 AM..
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Ooops? You've got it Backwards....
