Religion to become extinct, says model of census data (gospel, worship, Catholic)
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This raises a question. What proof do we have of other people's existance in history? After all not all famous people in history have proof of existence aside from hearsay. Why don't we question that? Because they aren't a religious symbol. alot of people from history where recorded in writing years after their death.
The thing is, if I wanted to do the work and search I could find evidence that dismisses that site. It all depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for Jesus not to exist, you will find it. If you are looking for proof he did exist, you will find it. When it comes to a subject like this, there is nobody that doesn't have an agenda or a result that they want shown.
You also have to realize that after someone like jesus was killed, the leaders of the modern church would have destroyed all evidence of his existence and punished any who chose to follow him. And If I recall, that is what happened. What's funny is that most historians don't question weather Jesus existed or not. Most except that he was simply a man who did great things and pissed off the local church leaders and politicians.
Why would Herod, Pontius Pilate or any greek soilder or civilian write about him? He was a pain in their collective back sides. Kill him, bury him, let him rot. That is what they did with people in those days. Jesus was not a noble he was a commoner who made them mad. How many other records of people being crucified have a record? We know they did crucify people until about 337CE. And who says the Bible is not a historical record of some events? We cast it aside because it is the only record of an eye witness account, that supports jesus' claims? Do you know how many ancient people have a single written record of themselves and it is proof enough for everyone? Hundreds.
Do you know that most Norse (viking) history is hearsay? The Norse didn't have written records, it was all passed down verbally. Same goes with most prehistory people, prehistory means before written record.
I am not claiming he was a messiah or the son of a God. I am saying that there is some evidence of his existence. Even if it is hearsay, how can you question it now, long after the subject and the writer are dead.
How about this, prove he didn't exist. Find proof 100% undeniable proof that he didn't exist. Guess what? It can't be done. Also, that artical you posted... would that no be hearsay? It isn't the authors own words, after all he referenced many books and other authors. This kind of thing makes me laugh. The author has no backing other than the books he chose to read.
Thought so!! Bible apologetics. The same old tripe they churn out time and time again, Josephus, Pliny, Seutonius, Thallus et al...blah blah....busted and debunked by the facts of history a million times.... Still, if that's all they have I suppose they just have to keep churning it out eh?
My friend. Each and every one of the sources listed on your "Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry" website have been debunked. I shall provide you with the facts if you so wish but it's a lot of typing so please, only ask for it if you are genuinely interested in learning something.
I really don't feel like typing it again so, read my last post.
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You did actually. You said....
"There is only one Jesus Christ in history."
Jesus the Christ is the biblical Jesus, the miracle man, the son of a god.
The 'other' Jesus is claimed to have been an itinerant rebel Rabbi. He was not the 'Son of God' nor did he have any miraculous powers. That's why I asked you which Jesus you were referring to.
Nope! The Jesus mentioned in the Bible is, allegedly, the son of a god. The other, if he existed, was not.
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Seriously? Jesus Christ is a title of the same man. Or you could say Jesus of Jesus of Nazareth or simply Jesus. Take Alexander III of Macedondo you know who he is? He is known as Hegemon of the Hellenic League, Shahanshah of Persia, Pharaoh of Egypt and The Lord of Asia, or as he is more commonly known as Alexander the Great.
This goes for a many other people in history. Just an friendly FYI don't challenge someone who is so into history, religion/philosophy and science with this kind of stuff.
Fascinating and comprehensive, not to mention compelling and riveting. A good bedtime read! And now I know in my skeptical heart that there neverwas a biblical son-of-God Jesus!
Many many thanks, Nea! I love enlightenment and intellectual freedom!
I also now detect some subterfuge in raison's posts. "Back-pedaling" might be the best descriptor?
A convenient change of heart, intellectual purpose or debator's intent?
This raises a question. What proof do we have of other people's existance in history? After all not all famous people in history have proof of existence aside from hearsay. Why don't we question that? Because they aren't a religious symbol. alot of people from history where recorded in writing years after their death.
The thing is, if I wanted to do the work and search I could find evidence that dismisses that site. It all depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for Jesus not to exist, you will find it. If you are looking for proof he did exist, you will find it. When it comes to a subject like this, there is nobody that doesn't have an agenda or a result that they want shown.
You also have to realize that after someone like jesus was killed, the leaders of the modern church would have destroyed all evidence of his existence and punished any who chose to follow him. And If I recall, that is what happened. What's funny is that most historians don't question weather Jesus existed or not. Most except that he was simply a man who did great things and pissed off the local church leaders and politicians.
Why would Herod, Pontius Pilate or any greek soilder or civilian write about him? He was a pain in their collective back sides. Kill him, bury him, let him rot. That is what they did with people in those days. Jesus was not a noble he was a commoner who made them mad. How many other records of people being crucified have a record? We know they did crucify people until about 337CE. And who says the Bible is not a historical record of some events? We cast it aside because it is the only record of an eye witness account, that supports jesus' claims? Do you know how many ancient people have a single written record of themselves and it is proof enough for everyone? Hundreds.
Do you know that most Norse (viking) history is hearsay? The Norse didn't have written records, it was all passed down verbally. Same goes with most prehistory people, prehistory means before written record.
I am not claiming he was a messiah or the son of a God. I am saying that there is some evidence of his existence. Even if it is hearsay, how can you question it now, long after the subject and the writer are dead.
How about this, prove he didn't exist. Find proof 100% undeniable proof that he didn't exist. Guess what? It can't be done. Also, that artical you posted... would that no be hearsay? It isn't the authors own words, after all he referenced many books and other authors. This kind of thing makes me laugh. The author has no backing other than the books he chose to read.
Actually, we have written records from the Norse time ( while they still existed) that told of the raids and about the Norse themselves, along with many other "tribes". We also have artifacts from the Norse that prove they existed. We also have written records from people themselves and counts of people during their time, Like Julius Ceasar ( while people were alive) paintings and other that recount these people. Mighty convenient that someone named Jesus that supposedly has done miracles, has ALL records of him destroyed during his time on earth. Do you know how absolutely impossible that would be to get EVERY written or any other type of record destroyed.
And no that article would not be hearsay, it is written based off actual research on the topic, they were not writing based on someone else's guesses or stories others had heard, yes he quoted book but those books were based on research and facts.
As to why People like Pontius Pilate and others write about him, well go reread the link, it discusses that. But here is a snippet
"The book cites Crozier as the editor as if he represented a scholar who edited Pilate's letters. Well, from the title, it certainly seems to indicate that Pilate wrote some letters doesn't it? However, unbeknownst or ignored by the uncritical faithful, this book represents Crozier's first novel, a fictionalized account of what he thought Pilate would have written."
Actually, we have written records from the Norse time ( while they still existed) that told of the raids and about the Norse themselves, along with many other "tribes". We also have artifacts from the Norse that prove they existed. We also have written records from people themselves and counts of people during their time, Like Julius Ceasar ( while people were alive) paintings and other that recount these people. Mighty convenient that someone named Jesus that supposedly has done miracles, has ALL records of him destroyed during his time on earth. Do you know how absolutely impossible that would be to get EVERY written or any other type of record destroyed.
And no that article would not be hearsay, it is written based off actual research on the topic, they were not writing based on someone else's guesses or stories others had heard, yes he quoted book but those books were based on research and facts.
Actually, Norse history that we have was written down hundreds of years after it happened. They didn't have a written language until they converted to Christianity.
And to destroy all records of one man back then would have been fairly easy. But, we still have the bible as a written record during his life. But, wait... that would mean excepting the bible as 100% truth. Actually, that is also wrong. Accepting the bible as partial truth is acceptable. After all alot of it is accurate with other events in history.
Did you know that the current way of keeping dates is also different than it was when around the time the bible was originally written? I bet you didn't. Most people don't realize how many times the calender has been changed by rulers.
No, no, nooooooo...you are too hung up on "religion", and specifically "The Bible"...and not "getting" the concept of the "Spiritual Fossil Record".
The same way we study "fossils" made of matter...to learn about the evolution of those things---We can study "spiritual fossils" to learn about how we have evolved spiritually.
Let me 'splain it to ya Seeker...it's all very simple...and the way I see it, all very "scientific":
Humans have evolved, over time, both physically AND mentally.
Evolution works like so...The "natural selection" of what survives and what doesn't, is based on the living things that have the "traits" that make them the "most fit", and thus the best adapted to the environment/situation/conditions they are living in, compared to the "less fit" that possess "traits" that are less advantageous to them. Over time the "most fit"...the ones with the "best traits"...will present in much greater numbers. We can then determine, that if at any given time a trait presents in a vast majority of a species...that trait is "the best" trait to have. If it wasn't the best trait...some other trait would present more prevalently.
Actually FAIL epic in fact.
Religion survived as it was a geopolitical power unchallenged for eons. The sheeple that held onto these myths knew no better and were successfully controlled by the religious and politicians who happened to be in bed with each other and played off human superstition.
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Based on the fact that almost 90% of humans present with the "mental trait" of Belief in a God, and only a little over 10% present with the "mental trait" of Nonbelief...the ONLY conclusion that can be made is that the trait of Nonbelief (Atheism) is what you would find in "less mentally fit" humans...and the trait of Belief in a God (Theism) is indicative of the "most mentally fit" humans.
Huh? Oh wait, you're serious.
A theist like a muslim that cuts people's heads off for petty crimes, a theist that test if a witch is one by drowning them and if they float burn them alive at the stake, a theist like the current pope that dose not condone condoms to curb the spread of AIDS, you mean those mentally fit theists? OK I get it. Yeah we are having a hard time eliminating the god gene
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Furthermore, it can be determined that the "less fit" Atheists could IMPROVE their "fitness" by acquiring the trait of Belief in a God.
So, based on the "Scientific Evidence" the Atheists would be enhanced if they were Believers...and the Believers would be diminished if they were Atheists. According to Evolution/Natural Selection/Survival of the Fittest, that is.
Err, most atheists are ex theists dearie, and atheists never had the liberty to voice their opinions in the past for fears of beheading or accusation of witchcraft. Luckily those daze are past and you are not allowed to kill us anymore (well except if you still under muslim law then it is better to shut up). Oh and your numbers are diminishing, it takes a long time to breed out 2000 years of fail. We are nonetheless pleased with the progress thus far and really for a lack of trying on our part. We just leave real science to do our dirty work for us.
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Study of the "Spiritual Fossil Record" PROVES we have EVOLVED to be Theist.
Of course, if Evolutionary Theory isn't valid...it doesn't matter. But I hold evolution to be valid...so these MUST be THE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN OBJECTIVE FACTS OF THE MATTER.
I just love the argumentum ad numerum that includes the barbaric practices of theists in the ME and Asia.
Actually, Norse history that we have was written down hundreds of years after it happened. They didn't have a written language until they converted to Christianity.
And to destroy all records of one man back then would have been fairly easy. But, we still have the bible as a written record during his life. But, wait... that would mean excepting the bible as 100% truth. Actually, that is also wrong. Accepting the bible as partial truth is acceptable. After all alot of it is accurate with other events in history.
Did you know that the current way of keeping dates is also different than it was when around the time the bible was originally written? I bet you didn't. Most people don't realize how many times the calender has been changed by rulers.
Actually some Norse history was written down during their time period. by others that had witnessed their raids and had seen them through the travels. we also have plenty of written from them themselves which prove their existence..My husbands family is Norse decedent, I enjoy their history. I also enjoy the Sumerian History and writings as well.
I find it impossible to believe that EVERY bit of proof as to Jesus during his life was found and destroyed, they always miss something.
Based on the fact that almost 90% of humans present with the "mental trait" of Belief in a God, and only a little over 10% present with the "mental trait" of Nonbelief...the ONLY conclusion that can be made is that the trait of Nonbelief (Atheism) is what you would find in "less mentally fit" humans...and the trait of Belief in a God (Theism) is indicative of the "most mentally fit" humans.
.
You seem to like using greater numbers as proofs so here's one for you to chew on .
75% of people have average or below average IQs and 25% above. IQ Test Scores: The Basics of IQ Score Interpretation
The readers of this forum can apply it as they will
Religion survived as it was a geopolitical power unchallenged for eons. The sheeple that held onto these myths knew no better and were successfully controlled by the religious and politicians who happened to be in bed with each other and played off human superstition.
Huh? Oh wait, you're serious.
A theist like a muslim that cuts people's heads off for petty crimes, a theist that test if a witch is one by drowning them and if they float burn them alive at the stake, a theist like the current pope that dose not condone condoms to curb the spread of AIDS, you mean those mentally fit theists? OK I get it. Yeah we are having a hard time eliminating the god gene
Err, most atheists are ex theists dearie, and atheists never had the liberty to voice their opinions in the past for fears of beheading or accusation of witchcraft. Luckily those daze are past and you are not allowed to kill us anymore (well except if you still under muslim law then it is better to shut up). Oh and your numbers are diminishing, it takes a long time to breed out 2000 years of fail. We are nonetheless pleased with the progress thus far and really for a lack of trying on our part. We just leave real science to do our dirty work for us.
I just love the argumentum ad numerum that includes the barbaric practices of theists in the ME and Asia.
Science = evolution
Religion = devolution
Boo!
As I said...you are too hung-up about "religion" and "religious dogma" to "get it". Typical.
"Beliefs about" and "assigned attributes mankind has pinned upon" the different conceptions of God...and the whacked out actions/ideas those "beliefs about" God motivate ignorant people to take/hold...has no bearing on "God Exists".
Nor does "beliefs about" or "assigned attributes of" God...speak to the SOURCE of our spiritual evolution...and of everything else that exists.
A theist like a muslim that cuts people's heads off for petty crimes, a theist that test if a witch is one by drowning them and if they float burn them alive at the stake, a theist like the current pope that dose not condone condoms to curb the spread of AIDS, you mean those mentally fit theists? OK I get it. Yeah we are having a hard time eliminating the god gene
Are you seriously comparing the millions of people that are religious(not all Christian) to that of a select few people? You are kidding right? Since when has one or even just a handful of people spoken for everyone? We are talking current times btw...not past.
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Err, most atheists are ex theists dearie, and atheists never had the liberty to voice their opinions in the past for fears of beheading or accusation of witchcraft. Luckily those daze are past and you are not allowed to kill us anymore (well except if you still under muslim law then it is better to shut up). Oh and your numbers are diminishing, it takes a long time to breed out 2000 years of fail. We are nonetheless pleased with the progress thus far and really for a lack of trying on our part. We just leave real science to do our dirty work for us.
HAHAH... I don't know what is funnier. The fact that you think all science in hard fact or that you think religion has been around for only 2000 years. Seeker, Religion predates most religions we know of today.
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Science = evolution
Religion = devolution
So, when the science is in your favor you agree with it. When the science isn't you don't.
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