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Why whenever you respond to my posts, do you always get so far off the point of the thread?
I was addressing the issue of: "It matters what your neighbor believes religiously". This post is in the "here and NOW", not, "hundreds of generations in the future".
HaHaHaHa...Funny that it was "SCIENCE" that had people believing that "earth must be flat" BS.---Heeeeeeeey, we have PROVEN OBJECTIVELY that water seeks level. Now, look at the oceans, seas, and lakes...how could they have water in them if the Earth wasn't flat?...Can't you see?...We have the scientifically proven, objective evidence to support it!
Also...regardless of what you say or hope for...the FACT remains...Atheism VS Theism is like putting a Little League team with a losing record against the NY Yankees. You need to get hip to that.
I love the "fastest growing minority group" statement! I hate to rain on your parade...but the Atheists improvement to 11W-89L from 10W-90L, isn't turning any heads!
You talk about "Atheist Ireland"... you're joking right? First, Ireland is like 90% Theist...second, even if they ALL converted, 6 million of the worlds 7 BILLION people means just about squat!
All the delusion of all the religious dogma that has ever existed pales in comparison to the delusion that Atheism will ever be anything to speak of. I know you don't like facing the REALITY that Atheism will never do anything but get trounced (like it ALWAYS has) in the arena of world influence...but that's as much a fact as any fact that has ever been know to man. Get a clue as to how things REALLY have been, how they REALLY are now, and how they are REALLY going to ALWAYS be when it comes to that issue.
The OP meant.....IMHO..... that your neighbors can dictate parts of your life by using religion etc...to justify bias and prejudice when VOTING on someone's rights......and when not conforming to the "tyranny of that majority".
Such as equal rights for women a few decades ago and equal rights for gay people today. He does not care what they believe....he means they sometimes use their belief system to deny and/or infringe on the rights of others.
The OP meant.....IMHO..... that your neighbors can dictate parts of your life by using religion etc...to justify bias and prejudice when VOTING on someone's rights......and when not conforming to the "tyranny of that majority".
Such as equal rights for women a few decades ago and equal rights for gay people today. He does not care what they believe....he means they sometimes use their belief system to deny and/or infringe on the rights of others.
Yes PITTS...the "religious" have always used their doctrines to oppress and to justify bias & intolerance. Gender/Sexual Orientation are some of their favorite things to heap hate and intolerance upon...even to the point of violence. It's so messed up! How strange...I thought they were supposed to be about "love"...but they usually demonstrate the opposite. Not always...but often. Plus they have bigtime strength in numbers and great endurance...so they are veeeeeeery formidable.
The OP is right...if you are around people like that, or in a society/culture like that...you will certainly be affected.
Yes...the U.S. and W. Europe are lightening up a bit...but it appears to be more than offset in other places. And that's a shame.
Yes your analogy works by showing how if you want to show a certain statistical fact, you simply have to hand pick the numbers that make it look best for you.
Looking at the overall picture however avoids this happening and globaly we are seeing that atheists are one of the fastest growing groups in terms of numbers. We are also seeing a massive declince, regardless of numbers, in the influence and hold of the church on our politics, our schools and our morality. On top of all this the playing field of religion, human ignorance, is declining slowly with each new discovery we make in science.... giving religion less chances to play "god of the gaps" games.
Is this change slow? Yes. Is there likely to be peaks and troughs where their influence and numbers go up as well as down? Yes. Does that mean we are not slowly, as a species, losing religion. No it does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Also...There is absolute objective evidence for God.
Do people keep telling me, but for some strange reason every single one of the people who tell me this always manage to simply NOT mention any of it. Weird that.
The rest of your argument is just "Argumentum ad populum". This is listed in the fallacies for good reason. Something is either correct, or it is not. It does not become more correct just because more people believe it.
Yes your analogy works by showing how if you want to show a certain statistical fact, you simply have to hand pick the numbers that make it look best for you.
Looking at the overall picture however avoids this happening and globaly we are seeing that atheists are one of the fastest growing groups in terms of numbers. We are also seeing a massive declince, regardless of numbers, in the influence and hold of the church on our politics, our schools and our morality. On top of all this the playing field of religion, human ignorance, is declining slowly with each new discovery we make in science.... giving religion less chances to play "god of the gaps" games.
Is this change slow? Yes. Is there likely to be peaks and troughs where their influence and numbers go up as well as down? Yes. Does that mean we are not slowly, as a species, losing religion. No it does not.
Do people keep telling me, but for some strange reason every single one of the people who tell me this always manage to simply NOT mention any of it. Weird that.
The rest of your argument is just "Argumentum ad populum". This is listed in the fallacies for good reason. Something is either correct, or it is not. It does not become more correct just because more people believe it.
Look Dude...I don't deal with "looks best for me"...I deal with REALITY.
You want to pretend it isn't what it is, because you don't like it.
I don't like it either...but I'm not going to delude myself.
That's what cowards that don't want to stand up and fight do...pretend the opposing force is of negligible consequence...that way they won't have to "man up".
Bottom REAL Line: Atheism was, is, and will never be nothin'!! And "religion" has just as much, if not more, influence on this world than it EVER has!!
What do you think is behind almost ALL of the current wars/violence in this world?
So, stick your head in the sand...but don't complain when you get blown up. Theeeeeen you'll see the influence...but you'll have been too involved with the reeeeeeeal important stuff...like what is written on coins, or whether homos can set themselves up for divorce. You'll find out.
Nobody ever gave you the evidence for God? No problem Nozz.
I can't take credit for it...I was taught...by a member of this forum actually.
I found it to be the most logical, sensible, and reasonable evidence of "God" I've ever seen anywhere. Possibly, others have presented it in the past, but I doubt in as exquisitely simple and incontrovertible a manner:
There exists "something"...the empirical evidence is that matter and energy does, in fact, exist. We KNOW this.
We also KNOW OBJECTIVELY that "something" has the ability to further create, to establish the "laws" that control that which it has created, and it even provides what is necessary to maintain and sustain that creation. These are the KNOWN ATTRIBUTES of that "something"...not "speculated", not "believed", but objective and definitive, SCIENTIFICALLY proven attributes.
The basic attributes known to define a "God"...is to be able to create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force.
That aforementioned "something" has all those attributes...the primary being CREATOR.
Whatever other "label" that anyone wants to assign to that "something"...be it "Nature", "The Universe", "All that Exists", "Great Spirit", "Higher Power"...it IS a CREATOR...and it IS, by it's KNOWN attributes, definitively, a GOD.
Thus a CREATOR/GOD exists...and exists as that "Something", which is "Everything".
Other "assigned attributes" or "beliefs about" that have been pinned on it, that are disputable/debatable not withstanding...A CREATOR/GOD EXISTS.
Look Dude...I don't deal with "looks best for me"...I deal with REALITY.
If you say so, but apparently not. The reality is that atheism is one of the fastest growing groups, science is answering questions that once were answered by religion, the religious are losing their hold in many countries on politics, education and moral authority. These are the realities for you to deal with. So deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Nobody ever gave you the evidence for God?
Nope. Never. And I have been asking for it for 18ish years now, give or take.
And no, your argument of "There exists SOMETHING therefore there must be a god" is pretty poor. You are just defining god into existence. If I define god to be my tooth brush then WOW LOOK god exists.
Similarly you are simply defining god to be the universe and the "laws" within it. Fair enough, in that case god exists. However it is not the definition of god most people adhere to. Most people adhere to there being a non-human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe. A thinking, rational, creative intelligence.
Yet not a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasons to lend that notion an iota of credence is being offered. There simply is nothing being offered to make us think such an entity is real.
Similarly you are simply defining god to be the universe and the "laws" within it. Fair enough, in that case god exists. However it is not the definition of god most people adhere to. Most people adhere to there being a non-human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe. A thinking, rational, creative intelligence.
Yet not a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasons to lend that notion an iota of credence is being offered. There simply is nothing being offered to make us think such an entity is real.
The evidence and logic for an intelligent universe making our reality intelligible and as the Source for our intelligence is incontrovertible . . . unless you can show me the logic syllogism that proceeds from a Premise of No intelligence to a Predicate of Intelligence.
If you say so, but apparently not. The reality is that atheism is one of the fastest growing groups, science is answering questions that once were answered by religion, the religious are losing their hold in many countries on politics, education and moral authority. These are the realities for you to deal with. So deal.
Nope. Never. And I have been asking for it for 18ish years now, give or take.
And no, your argument of "There exists SOMETHING therefore there must be a god" is pretty poor. You are just defining god into existence. If I define god to be my tooth brush then WOW LOOK god exists.
Similarly you are simply defining god to be the universe and the "laws" within it. Fair enough, in that case god exists. However it is not the definition of god most people adhere to. Most people adhere to there being a non-human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe. A thinking, rational, creative intelligence.
Yet not a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasons to lend that notion an iota of credence is being offered. There simply is nothing being offered to make us think such an entity is real.
You can twist it all you want...but it is YOU that must "deal" with the REALITY of how the world REALLY is. And THIS is what is REAL:
Any gains Atheism is making in some places are faaaaaaar outweighed by what it is losing in others...resulting in a NET overall LOSS. And the ability of "religion" to influence in a way that makes a REAL difference is as strong as ever, and getting stronger.
You can point to stuff like writings on coins, homos being able to file documentation of their relationship at some government office, and stuff like limits of public displays that are based on theological viewpoints...but that stuff doesn't mean squat as far as REAL influence.
Too bad all the people that died in the Trade Center, or in the M.E., will never get to carry some of the new currency that doesn't have "In God We Trust" written on it!!!!...Get it now?!
You said no one ever mentions any "evidence" that God exists, when you ask for it...so I gave it to you. Then you rebut that it wasn't the definition of God "most people adhere to"....Ummmmmmm, what does THAT have to do with MY explanation?!
And for you to conflate what I explained and equate it to..."If I define god to be my tooth brush then WOW LOOK god exists"...is ridiculous.
Your toothbrush cannot, "create, control, maintain, and sustain matter and energy, completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force"...which I explained is the basic definitive attributes of a "God".
That you would rebut in such a lame and weak manner shows me that you are not interested in a true, real, and genuine exchange...and unless you were joking I really feel I'm wasting my time responding to you, except to respond in kind for the "amusement factor". And I really don't have a problem with that...MOF that type of exchange is some of my favorite...I just need to remember to keep it in that "context" with you.
So if I believe your god exists however you wish to define it, what difference does it make to my life?
What will this belief bring me?
First...It's not MY God...it's simply God.
Second...Know that you cannot "decide" to believe (TRULY believe) anything...you either truly believe something, or you don't. It's not a "choice" you can make. Belief is what it is...and ONLY what it is.
Third...I don't simply "believe" God exists...I KNOW God exists.
I don't know what difference it would make to YOUR life...or what it would "bring" you...beyond the belief itself, that is.
People assimilate and react to things differently...so that would be "on you".
Third...I don't simply "believe" God exists...I KNOW God exists.
Well aren't you special...You know something that cannot be known.
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