Allow me to paint you a picture... (beliefs, exist, religion)
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What about them? It has been pointed out on a number of occasions on this forum that Hamass provides social services in Gaza and louis farrakan does community work in that he gets young black men off drugs. Does that for ONE moment excuse the fact that the first is a militarized terrorist organisation with a fanatical antisemitic ideology or that the latter runs a racist crackpot cult? No.
You are guilty of your accusation. In the OP you say people are focusing on the bad things religious people have done and attack the religion as a whole in response.
What you need to realise is the opposite is true too. You are focusing on the good things some religious people have done, and are trying to extrapolate from this that the religion itself is good/useful/moral.
Both extrapolations are as bad as each other and if you wish to condemn people extrapolating individual bad action into an attack on a religion... you need to condemn those who extrapolate individual good action as a defense of them.
Otherwise you are being intellectually dishonest and acting like you can just disown the bad for everyone and claim the good for everyone. A little bit too convenient for you I feel.
Again the question should be changed and one should focus on whether there are actual causal links between atheism/theism and good/bad actions. Not whether people who are atheist/theist perform good/bad actions on individual or group basis. The reason most theists do NOT ask the question that way however is that they rarely come out looking good from the answers.
If you go back and actually read my posts you will see that I make it very clear that there are BOTH good AND bad people out there doing things in the name of religion.
In regards to the question is there anything in atheism/theism that can lead to people causing harm? Yes in both cases. We all know how religion can lead to harm. But what most people neglect to see is that most atheists claim we are merely animals (I agree) and that in reality things good, bad, evil, and morals don't actually exist and are merely concepts created by man. This could lead one to think it is ok and natural to kill other humans. Lions kill other lions all the time, why not humans? Animals kill off the weak or leave them to die, this includes their young, why not humans? It's only natural, right?
The real question is what does it matter where a person gets their morals as long as they do no harm to others?
So essentially both philosophical ideals could lead to some form of harm.
If you go back and actually read my posts you will see that I make it very clear that there are BOTH good AND bad people out there doing things in the name of religion.
In regards to the question is there anything in atheism/theism that can lead to people causing harm? Yes in both cases. We all know how religion can lead to harm. But what most people neglect to see is that most atheists claim we are merely animals (I agree) and that in reality things good, bad, evil, and morals don't actually exist and are merely concepts created by man. This could lead one to think it is ok and natural to kill other humans. Lions kill other lions all the time, why not humans? Animals kill off the weak or leave them to die, this includes their young, why not humans? It's only natural, right?
The real question is what does it matter where a person gets their morals as long as they do no harm to others?
So essentially both philosophical ideals could lead to some form of harm.
I see where you are going with this, but you are stretching it a bit don't you think?
I make it very clear that there are BOTH good AND bad people out there doing things in the name of religion.
Yet your op and your general rhetoric chooses to focus on the good as if it promotes religion and the bad as if it is only the actions of individuals. This is not intellectually honest. My point here is to say that if you dismiss one as the action of individuals you must do it with the other. If you accept one as being representative of religion, you must do so with the other.
People do good and bad things and do so in the name of their religion, so it really is of no interest. What IS of interest is whether there really is a causal link between those good/bad things and the religion(s).
What we find is that there is no good done because of religion that is not done without it. Religion would appear to be entirely superfluous to doing good therefore, even if they currently have a monopoly in the minds of people on the subject.
Yet we do not have to look far to find horrific things that really can only be blamed on religion, such as its penchant for breaking down the possibility of discourse or its ability to take the pure love parents have for children and make it do things like have those parents watch their lovely children die from easily treatable illnesses simply because they think their god is against the treatment.
I see no good in the world actually directly caused by religion. I only see good that religion has managed to benefit by associating itself with. I DO see bad in the world directly caused by it.
This is why I said theists prefer to simply list the good things and not actually ask the question I want to ask: Are there any causal links between good/bad things and atheism/theism. Theism rarely comes out looking good from such questions.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
But what most people neglect to see is that most atheists claim we are merely animals
You have been told this on many many occasions yet stubbornly ignore it because it does not suit you. Atheism is only the rejection of one proposition, the idea there is a god. Anything else you tack on to it is simply wrong. Saying atheism leads to any action, good or bad, makes as much sense as saying not collecting stamps will lead one to play football.
However the fact we are animals, and pointing this out, is not a bad thing. It has nothing to do with our morals. Morals are subjective. There is no apparent objective standard for them. That does not mean we can not construct a rational and workable moral framework with the groundings we do have. The equating of atheism with immorality or amorality is just a desperate ploy and itself has no basis whatsoever. I have written on this before.
Atheism in and of itself is entirely neutral on morality. Therefore the question of whether there is a causal link between good/bad things and atheism is NO on both counts. It can not directly be the cause of good or bad. What the individual atheist also believes while being an atheist is what leads him to right or wrong actions.
So while theism can lead to harm and often will for very good reasons (such as my discourse comment) I see no causal link from nothing but atheism and any action whatsoever. It is what the atheist believes after this fact you must be concerned with.
But what most people neglect to see is that most atheists claim we are merely animals (I agree) and that in reality things good, bad, evil, and morals don't actually exist and are merely concepts created by man.
And here we go again. Any evidence that atheists actually make these claims? Considering that what you've said is totally contradictory I strongly doubt that most atheists say this. Look at what you wrote - morals don't exist and they are also made by men? Which is it - either they don't exist or they're man made? Come on, if you're going to try and make up stuff to argue against, at least try and have it make sense.
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This could lead one to think it is ok and natural to kill other humans.
Just like religions have been teaching for thousands of years.
Corporatations stipulate in an indirect way that they do not want the exceptional - they want common compliant and ordinary people to make their wheels go round. This is a trend..when it comes to collectivism - be it capitalistic or socialistic..having said that...You ask the question do BAD artists represent all artists?
From what I observe people are conditioned by our corporate world to accept and believe that bad art is good art. The same can be said of religion - we are not getting the cream of the crop when it comes to the best spiritual paths and alternatives. What people are exposed to is the mediorcre..not that best - and THAT is what gives religion a bad name.
Most religions and their tenets are inferior to what they could be! Human nature has it that they are willing to believe in the worst...first - and the best is swept away. For instance in extremist Islam..some believe that killing people who do not follow their doctrines is assisting God in some strange way. This is bizarre and lack reason and logic. If Islam believes that God is ALL MIGHTY...then logic dictates that to assist God in killing people is a statement that says _ God is weak and NOT all mighty - This small point shows clearly that fidelity is lacking with these zealots...and in effect they have through extremism become what they hate - Ifidels! How can the world or thinking people in general take this religion seriously when it is high jacked by crazy people who lack God given logic and clear reasoning?
Yet your op and your general rhetoric chooses to focus on the good as if it promotes religion and the bad as if it is only the actions of individuals. This is not intellectually honest. My point here is to say that if you dismiss one as the action of individuals you must do it with the other. If you accept one as being representative of religion, you must do so with the other.
Ok, how does this work for you: People do both good and bad things in the name of religion. In both cases the act could be done without religion being present. However, it gives some individuals meaning to use religion as their flag of choice to fly.
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People do good and bad things and do so in the name of their religion, so it really is of no interest. What IS of interest is whether there really is a causal link between those good/bad things and the religion(s).
Of course there are. People do bad things in the name of religion because they feel it has been cast down on them by their god or church elders. Same goes for people who do good things, they feel it is worthy of their gods praise if they do good things.
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What we find is that there is no good done because of religion that is not done without it. Religion would appear to be entirely superfluous to doing good therefore, even if they currently have a monopoly in the minds of people on the subject.
And there is no bad done because of religion that is not done without it. People do BOTH good and bad thing with or without a religious banner. This statement you make here is exactly what I am talking about. You don't paint the real picture with comments like this. You avoid the FACT that people do hideous crimes WITHOUT religion every day.
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Yet we do not have to look far to find horrific things that really can only be blamed on religion, such as its penchant for breaking down the possibility of discourse or its ability to take the pure love parents have for children and make it do things like have those parents watch their lovely children die from easily treatable illnesses simply because they think their god is against the treatment.
What about those parents who are giving their children something they know could/will extend their life and make it miserable in the long run only to die later on a slower and painful death? No different than a parent giving a kid Chemo in hopes it "cures" them. We dont have to look far to find horrific things that can only be done by mankind with or without religion.
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I see no good in the world actually directly caused by religion. I only see good that religion has managed to benefit by associating itself with. I DO see bad in the world directly caused by it.
That is because you have allowed yourself to see all as the same. Basically, you see all artists as Jackson pollock.
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This is why I said theists prefer to simply list the good things and not actually ask the question I want to ask: Are there any causal links between good/bad things and atheism/theism. Theism rarely comes out looking good from such questions.
And I have answered that question honestly.
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You have been told this on many many occasions yet stubbornly ignore it because it does not suit you. Atheism is only the rejection of one proposition, the idea there is a god. Anything else you tack on to it is simply wrong. Saying atheism leads to any action, good or bad, makes as much sense as saying not collecting stamps will lead one to play football.
Atheism is a religious viewpoint. You choosing to see that or not is your problem. And yes, atheists have their views on certain things. These views are shared by mostly the criminally insane who disregard life. To see a view point that there is no evil or bad in the world is harmful as I could shoot someone and claim that evil doesn't exist so what I did was only natural.
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However the fact we are animals, and pointing this out, is not a bad thing. It has nothing to do with our morals. Morals are subjective. There is no apparent objective standard for them. That does not mean we can not construct a rational and workable moral framework with the groundings we do have. The equating of atheism with immorality or amorality is just a desperate ploy and itself has no basis whatsoever. I have written on this before.
As long as someone is claiming to be an atheist and gives an opposing viewpoint to religion in this way, it is a religious viewpoint and could potentially and does cause harm. Tell me, if someone sees us a merely animals and that morals don't actually exist and that it is only natural to kill other humans as a lion kills other lions to lead the pack, how is this not harmful.
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Atheism in and of itself is entirely neutral on morality. Therefore the question of whether there is a causal link between good/bad things and atheism is NO on both counts. It can not directly be the cause of good or bad. What the individual atheist also believes while being an atheist is what leads him to right or wrong actions.
neither can religion. Only people do harm. Religion is only a term used to label someone who is spiritual or believes in a deity. Atheism is someone who may or may not be spiritual but does not believe in a deity. People do good and bad things with and without flying religious flags. People will kill other people and do bad things if it vanishes. Science kills people every day along side religion, yet it is seen as more good than bad.... odd.
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So while theism can lead to harm and often will for very good reasons (such as my discourse comment) I see no causal link from nothing but atheism and any action whatsoever. It is what the atheist believes after this fact you must be concerned with.
A very simple thing gave me insite....I was looking through a very old English dictionary and noticed that the original spelling for good and in goodness....was like this - GOD...that close the books for me...If it sustains life and creates prosperity and peace and happiness - it is good - or it is GOD...all that other stuff is non-sense.
And here we go again. Any evidence that atheists actually make these claims? Considering that what you've said is totally contradictory I strongly doubt that most atheists say this. Look at what you wrote - morals don't exist and they are also made by men? Which is it - either they don't exist or they're man made? Come on, if you're going to try and make up stuff to argue against, at least try and have it make sense.
Just like religions have been teaching for thousands of years.
What tactic is this in the handbook? This is a childish debate tactics. When you can provide evidence that religion is mostly bad... well, you can't so... yeah. Good luck.
How do you guys feel about the Church of Euthanasia?
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