and when you go to heaven (salvation, souls, hell, Egyptian)
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do you become a different person? i assume you have to if all your sinful ways are not apart of you now you are all soul and not flesh. do you become a robot instead? how do you know you will not sin again? if angels can sin and raise up against god in heaven and humans did it again before they were introduced to sin.. then how can you be sure that this wont happen again? that someone over the course of eternity wont change their mind and mess it up for everyone once again. what happens to you when you go to hell? do you become complete evil/sin and stay flesh to keep the sin going? or do you stay how you were on earth, alot of bad with possible peaks of good? are souls(since the angels messed up along with man) inherently good or inherently bad?
Unfortunately, you have confused a lot of mythology with religious fact. I describe it as religious fact because so many of us have been indoctrinated in Fundamentalism as truth.
What we need to do is to step back and examine the question with both logic and exegesis.
1. To assume that God is in heaven and that angel rebelled against it is to accept a very limited version of God.
We inherited this mythology from the Sumerians. Until recently, not a lot of people recognized that our favorite Greek, Roman, and Egyptian mythology stems from the Sumerians. And even in Judaism, Christian, and Islamic religious philosophy, we have not succesfully divorced ourselves from warped thinking based upon this ancient mythology.
What is heaven?
Even the Jews realized that what they termed heaven was simply that canopy above the Earth where the lights of heaven shown through pinpricks purposely poked into the canopy.
But then, even before Judaism became a religion, mankind was always loking towards the heavens and hoping that they could go there, the abode of the gods.
2. To assume that anything of creation could rebel against God would mean that
a. God is much less powerful or significant if IT can be overwhelmed
or
b. It was the Will of this God for rebellion, dissension, and the like was to be part and parcel of creation.
Choice a. reflects the constant wars in heaven between the gods themselves, that the Great and Mighty An could be defeated and overthrown. Afterall, isn't that what Zeus did to his own father?
The gods, according to the Sumerians, kept battling each other on this Earth. There are references in the Bible where God had to give permission for other nations to attack his people. And, there is extra-Biblical references that describe the punishment for certain armies that attacked Jerusalem when these mortals did not have permission.
3. You mentioned sin. What is sin? Christianity, under the Hellenistic influence, as well as Paul's ascendancy in dictating / shaping what Christianity was to become, warped the very essence of sin into everything that is anti-God. Interestingly, the Jews had no notion before foreign conquest and corruption of the Judaic faith. It was clearly possible for a human being to be perfect before God. In fact, we have two such humans that were taken up into heaven because of their perfection: Seth and Elijah.
Elijah amazes me. He had a lot of blood on his hands, and yet he was considered perfect in the eyes of God (according to the writers, of course).
Again, according to the ancient Jewish faith, the Earth represented death. When one thinks about it, one has to eat death in order to remain alive. Thus, anyone who becomes perfected before God cannot remain in or on the Earth.
This is also applicable to the risen Jesus. Jesus could not stick around in the world because death had perfected him. He had conquered death, and it wouldn't be very logical to stick around in death (Earth) if death no longer has any meaning.
4. Angels. Thousands of years of interpretation and we are still hung up with humanoids with extra appendages on their backs which we call wings. Messengers, the ancients called them. Sumerians described some as being either of both sexes or sexless. Mindless for the most part. The OT writers had them flying around all over the place, but not on appendages on their backs but in vehicles. Funny that the NT lacks any angels.
5. When it all comes down to the brass tacks, wondering what heaven (Nirvana, actually) will be like misses the whole point of life. For eons, we have had philosophers proclaiming that people are our business. And yet, so many still gaze up at the stars and wish they could get away from it all.
Kind of selfish, don't you think?
But if there really is a sin, then it can be boiled down to one unnerving fact: we are that part of creation that rebelled and continually rebels against God--however you want to define IT. And while none of us really deserve to enter an existence of nihilism, a salvation from this otherwise meaningless, hellish existence, it is love that remains constant.
do you become a different person? i assume you have to if all your sinful ways are not apart of you now you are all soul and not flesh. do you become a robot instead? how do you know you will not sin again? if angels can sin and raise up against god in heaven and humans did it again before they were introduced to sin.. then how can you be sure that this wont happen again? that someone over the course of eternity wont change their mind and mess it up for everyone once again. what happens to you when you go to hell? do you become complete evil/sin and stay flesh to keep the sin going? or do you stay how you were on earth, alot of bad with possible peaks of good? are souls(since the angels messed up along with man) inherently good or inherently bad?
MAN chooses his eternal destiny whether heaven or hell and God simply grants it , only without end.
In Heaven , you will eventually have a new Body that will never wear out and will be imperverious to pain and sickness and resemble how you looked on earth but radically different . In Hell, you will have a new Body that never wears out except it will feel pain. You will not be 'a Robot' in either place but you WILL serve a Master ; which One depends on Us now . God is totally fair when it comes to where people end up for all of eternity....we choose and he grants it. Shun Jesus now and get shunned later. Love Jesus now and you get to love him more when you stand before him . No, its not a bunch of religion ...that mantra is just a convenient excuse --- its alllll based on whether you want a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Creator who loves you and fashioned you in his likeness . Some will be shocked, dismayed, and regretful beyond belief in eternity...while others will find it very natural to see Christ whom they loved all their earthly life and trusted in.
MAN chooses his eternal destiny whether heaven or hell and God simply grants it , only without end.
that is silly you cannot choose to go to place you don't want to go
Quote:
In Heaven , you will eventually have a new Body that will never wear out and will be imperverious to pain and sickness and resemble how you looked on earth but radically different . In Hell, you will have a new Body that never wears out except it will feel pain. You will not be 'a Robot' in either place but you WILL serve a Master ; which One depends on Us now . God is totally fair when it comes to where people end up for all of eternity....we choose and he grants it. Shun Jesus now and get shunned later. Love Jesus now and you get to love him more when you stand before him . No, its not a bunch of religion ...that mantra is just a convenient excuse --- its alllll based on whether you want a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Creator who loves you and fashioned you in his likeness . Some will be shocked, dismayed, and regretful beyond belief in eternity...while others will find it very natural to see Christ whom they loved all their earthly life and trusted in.
serving a master in heaven is like living in north korea where life is worshipping the dead Kim il Sung the eternal president and his sons and grand sons who are the head of the party and the army and saying this this is a personal relationship with a celestial dictator you called god and Jesus is the definition of religion which is the beliefs and rituals based on the supernatural and the worship of a god. why do the religious like the change the meaning of words denying they are religious?
Many people such as yourself will not heed the warnings nor the obvious evidence to a personal theistic Creator that is readily available for you to examine , and it will have to take the first few moments after physical death for such people to finally get with the program. It is each our personal choice .
MAN chooses his eternal destiny whether heaven or hell and God simply grants it , only without end.
In Heaven , you will eventually have a new Body that will never wear out and will be imperverious to pain and sickness and resemble how you looked on earth but radically different . In Hell, you will have a new Body that never wears out except it will feel pain. You will not be 'a Robot' in either place but you WILL serve a Master ; which One depends on Us now . God is totally fair when it comes to where people end up for all of eternity....we choose and he grants it. Shun Jesus now and get shunned later. Love Jesus now and you get to love him more when you stand before him . No, its not a bunch of religion ...that mantra is just a convenient excuse --- its alllll based on whether you want a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Creator who loves you and fashioned you in his likeness . Some will be shocked, dismayed, and regretful beyond belief in eternity...while others will find it very natural to see Christ whom they loved all their earthly life and trusted in.
Yes, a very pleasant dream, but unfortunately for theists that is all it is....It's all made up, fiction, a tall tale, and based on emotional wishful thinking.
Many people such as yourself will not heed the warnings nor the obvious evidence to a personal theistic Creator that is readily available for you to examine , and it will have to take the first few moments after physical death for such people to finally get with the program. It is each our personal choice .
what obvious evidence? can you prove what you just said?
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Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmicstargoat
Isn't it the truth? I mean, eternity is a long, long time. After you have talked to Jesus, Elvis and an infinite number of other people 10,000 times, taken a million roller-coaster rides through various black holes and eaten Angel Food cake and ice cream to your heart's content, wouldn't heaven become a drudgery? A hell? Give me sweet oblivion after death, I will embrace it.
actually if i had shimp tempura sushi for all eternity, lol i could love it forever ..ha
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
MAN chooses his eternal destiny whether heaven or hell and God simply grants it , only without end.
In Heaven , you will eventually have a new Body that will never wear out and will be imperverious to pain and sickness and resemble how you looked on earth but radically different . In Hell, you will have a new Body that never wears out except it will feel pain. You will not be 'a Robot' in either place but you WILL serve a Master ; which One depends on Us now . God is totally fair when it comes to where people end up for all of eternity....we choose and he grants it. Shun Jesus now and get shunned later. Love Jesus now and you get to love him more when you stand before him . No, its not a bunch of religion ...that mantra is just a convenient excuse --- its alllll based on whether you want a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Creator who loves you and fashioned you in his likeness . Some will be shocked, dismayed, and regretful beyond belief in eternity...while others will find it very natural to see Christ whom they loved all their earthly life and trusted in.
that you choose? so at the gates you can choose? its not really a choice..more like a picking a lesser evil...both places sounds like somewhere i dont want to be. and why eternity for an finite amount of years..? and the master? is satan the master? so god made satan a god? god is a bit unrealistic/unresonable person it seems? he puts you in a flaw human form and then gets angry that you sin, but decided to keep a sin tree near by.. then instead of getting rid of the devil or adam and eve or at least doing something else, he continues all of creation born in the thing he hates, then you are born a sinner, and your suppose to fight against nature, and if you can't do that correctly he burns you in hell for all eternity? thats a bit rash, its not my fault he couldn't make creation right. however they say jesus came down to save us (which is totally cool with me, jesus is the only part i can stand in this whole mess of a thing) but doesn't allow him to just cover everything...then jesus just kind of died for nothing if we all can't be saved , because sin is eternally difficult seems like. this was really unnecessary to send billions of people to hell to prove a point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallisdj
Unfortunately, you have confused a lot of mythology with religious fact. I describe it as religious fact because so many of us have been indoctrinated in Fundamentalism as truth.
What we need to do is to step back and examine the question with both logic and exegesis.
1. To assume that God is in heaven and that angel rebelled against it is to accept a very limited version of God.
We inherited this mythology from the Sumerians. Until recently, not a lot of people recognized that our favorite Greek, Roman, and Egyptian mythology stems from the Sumerians. And even in Judaism, Christian, and Islamic religious philosophy, we have not succesfully divorced ourselves from warped thinking based upon this ancient mythology.
What is heaven?
Even the Jews realized that what they termed heaven was simply that canopy above the Earth where the lights of heaven shown through pinpricks purposely poked into the canopy.
But then, even before Judaism became a religion, mankind was always loking towards the heavens and hoping that they could go there, the abode of the gods.
2. To assume that anything of creation could rebel against God would mean that
a. God is much less powerful or significant if IT can be overwhelmed
or
b. It was the Will of this God for rebellion, dissension, and the like was to be part and parcel of creation.
Choice a. reflects the constant wars in heaven between the gods themselves, that the Great and Mighty An could be defeated and overthrown. Afterall, isn't that what Zeus did to his own father?
The gods, according to the Sumerians, kept battling each other on this Earth. There are references in the Bible where God had to give permission for other nations to attack his people. And, there is extra-Biblical references that describe the punishment for certain armies that attacked Jerusalem when these mortals did not have permission.
3. You mentioned sin. What is sin? Christianity, under the Hellenistic influence, as well as Paul's ascendancy in dictating / shaping what Christianity was to become, warped the very essence of sin into everything that is anti-God. Interestingly, the Jews had no notion before foreign conquest and corruption of the Judaic faith. It was clearly possible for a human being to be perfect before God. In fact, we have two such humans that were taken up into heaven because of their perfection: Seth and Elijah.
Elijah amazes me. He had a lot of blood on his hands, and yet he was considered perfect in the eyes of God (according to the writers, of course).
Again, according to the ancient Jewish faith, the Earth represented death. When one thinks about it, one has to eat death in order to remain alive. Thus, anyone who becomes perfected before God cannot remain in or on the Earth.
This is also applicable to the risen Jesus. Jesus could not stick around in the world because death had perfected him. He had conquered death, and it wouldn't be very logical to stick around in death (Earth) if death no longer has any meaning.
4. Angels. Thousands of years of interpretation and we are still hung up with humanoids with extra appendages on their backs which we call wings. Messengers, the ancients called them. Sumerians described some as being either of both sexes or sexless. Mindless for the most part. The OT writers had them flying around all over the place, but not on appendages on their backs but in vehicles. Funny that the NT lacks any angels.
5. When it all comes down to the brass tacks, wondering what heaven (Nirvana, actually) will be like misses the whole point of life. For eons, we have had philosophers proclaiming that people are our business. And yet, so many still gaze up at the stars and wish they could get away from it all.
Kind of selfish, don't you think?
But if there really is a sin, then it can be boiled down to one unnerving fact: we are that part of creation that rebelled and continually rebels against God--however you want to define IT. And while none of us really deserve to enter an existence of nihilism, a salvation from this otherwise meaningless, hellish existence, it is love that remains constant.
i did see a documentary on how christianity is based on every one elses religion, from the 25th of december , to the trees for xmas, to some horus myths , etc etc..so much i wouldn't even know where to begin.
Perhaps your "heaven" is at hand and you are living in it.... better make it a place you can be happy with. If you think you get do overs I suspect you are not living up to your potential.
You can be what you aspire to be. not tomorrow but now. Your past does not affect what you can be now. Chose something different if it hasn't been what you feel it should be.
I would be more interested in the moment after death.
I mean, on one hand, according to literature, once back in the spiritual state, we resume to our former existence with all the knowledge gained over the various lifetimes experienced.
On the other hand, would we not be "handicapped" by the experiences, limited knowledge of our current (but ended) lifetime, and our personality that developed as a consequence of this lifetime?
The question came to me after reviewing in a meditative state of a gladiator meeting his end in the arena.
Here we have a "barbarian" of limited learning, fighting with brawn and some, skill, a veteran of many contests, and possibly enjoying the taking of life and reveling in the sport of gore.
Then, at the moment of death, the soul or the essence of the man is immediately jerked apart from the mortal coil. What kind of--for the lack of better descriptors--emotional shock, turmoil, feelings, et al would this soul experience?
I can imagine only to a limited degree how I might feel if I were this "animal" reveling in the destruction of fellow human beings suddenly being rocked to a greater consciousness that what I was in the never-ending theatre of human existence was totally contrary to what I had evolved spiritually through other lifetime experiences.
At this moment, I am more intrigued by this single moment of passing through the veil of death than wondering what "eternity" will be like.
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