Provide Proof God Does Not Exist & Proof of Evolution Theory (Christian, believers)

[Vansdad]

Originally Posted by rifleman

La-tee-dahhh.. ............twiddly-me-thumbs............................

Gettin' resssssstttttttttttlllllllllless heeeeeeere!

Well Vansdad? After all, it's been a fricking eternity ("Godicly speaking...") since 3:41p when I posted my seemingly innocent and VERY simple question. Your quick and wholesome answer is patiently (but now ...tum-tiddly-um-yummmmmmmm.....impatiently..) awaited by those of us not as well intellectually endowed as you.

Come ON with it, MAN!

From which nothing did God and His Creation spring (POOOFFFF!!!) out of?

I see your anger and it is quite overwhelming actually. I am sorry for the delay but I am not always on here. Let's see...scientifically there is a connection or mathematical formula that ties all the universe together. Just like E=mc2 there is a connection between energy and matter. So obviously formula's like the one Einstien discovered are still waiting to be discovered. Ones that tie all sorts of things and maybe even life together. I believe that this God not only knows them but created it this way. It is His knowlegde that built this universe, life and all. So vast we can hardly fathom it all. I do not use or subscribe to the bibles' rendition, whatever that is. But purpose and deliberateness of life and the universe are real to me. I think it is beyond shallow to think all of this is just here for no reason. Those are just my beliefs. And with a deliberate creation is the Creator. To me it would be like saying a car is just there. No it was put together for a purpose. Now just think of how much more complex life and the universe is. Are you saying it has no purpose? Come on you can't be serious. Anyway believe what you want and have a good time with it.

[Vansdad]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Odd. I was under the impression that was the cop out answer that is normally used to answer the "Where did god come from then?" question.

I am curious what an atheist "believes" is the way we came into existance. Either it all started somewhere or it has always existed. I'm not sure if there is anything in between. A lot of atheists claim that all the "right" conditions came together somehow from nothing and poof the universe magically began. Now the atheists are waiting for their messiah, the scientist who makes this maraculous discovery.

[Heathen Hammer]

Vansdad, are you unfamiliar with Big Bang theory? Not just science-wise atheists subscribe to it. Science-wise theists do too

[mensaguy]

Originally Posted by Vansdad

I am curious what an atheist "believes" is the way we came into existance. Either it all started somewhere or it has always existed. I'm not sure if there is anything in between. A lot of atheists claim that all the "right" conditions came together somehow from nothing and poof the universe magically began. Now the atheists are waiting for their messiah, the scientist who makes this maraculous discovery.

There are at least a dozen confirmed atheists that regularly post here. They will tell you that they have exactly ONE thing in common; a belief in zero gods. Anything any one of them believes about the early days on earth is incidental and cannot be attributed to atheists in general.

This is the first time I have heard of an atheist messiah.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Vansdad

I am curious what an atheist "believes" is the way we came into existance.

Perhaps you are but if so then I would heartily recommend you change your approach as the tone and language and pointless eye rolling smileys and so forth which you are using so far in this thread suggest you are more interested in telling atheists what they believe, and how ridiculous you find it, rather than listening to them tell you what their position is. You are making clear overtures that you are likely to find anything said to you ridiculous regardless of what it is before you even hear it. Perhaps not your intention but this is how you are coming across should you be interested.

The problem is that there IS no one "atheist position" on this question. Atheism is simply the position of having considered the god claim and found it unsubstantiated and thus they do not believe it. That is all that atheists have in common.

So what each atheist believes about how we came into existence is going to vary wildly depending on which atheist you ask. Many people need to divest themselves of the notion that there is one position that all atheists subscribe to. Asking what atheists believe about how we came into existence makes as much sense as asking what flavor ice cream do people with beards like best. If you can understand why the latter is a stupid question you will understand why the former is too. Same reason.

So I can only answer for myself and my answer to this is a simple "We do not know". It is an open question and one we are doing amazing things in order to answer. From theorists with pen and paper right up to scientists with the massive machines of CERN our species is united in a wonderful quest to reach an answer to this question.

In the meantime however it is clear that theists will happily stick the "god of the gaps" into any place where our current answer is "I do not know". They gravitate towards points of ignorance in our species and act like the fact we do not know an answer to X means there must be a god. A complete and unsubstantiated non - sequitur but that is the move they are intent on pulling.

Originally Posted by Vansdad

Either it all started somewhere or it has always existed. I'm not sure if there is anything in between.

Hard to say. You are... for obvious reasons... thinking like a human. Humans think in terms of time because we evolved in a universe based on time. The problem is that we know time is one of the attributes created at the big bang.

So you are... quite rightly in terms of normal human thought.... stuck thinking about things like "started" and "always" and other concepts like "begin" and "cause" and the like. Humans find it difficult to impossible to think any other way. But clearly given time only came about with the big bang such concepts will not apply.

Whatever the explanation for our existence is it will be difficult to explain or understand using temporal based linguistics. It will have to be expressed in something like mathematics I am sure. But because we are a species trapped thinking in terms of time and causality and the like most of us are indeed going to fall into the type of thinking you display here.

Something tells me if we ever do find a "theory of everything" which explains how and why we are here then people will still believe in a god solely because it is much less complex an idea. Hopefully that is just my natural pessimism shining through however.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Vansdad

"A lot of atheists claim that all the "right" conditions came together somehow from nothing and poof the universe magically began. Now the atheists are waiting for their messiah, the scientist who makes this maraculous discovery."

Really? Would you be so kind as to link the posts where this hypothesis was forwarded? I particularly like the borrowed "poofed" concept, since that one is for certain the all-time favorite of Christians, not atheists.

As has been so well ellucidated here, atheists do not have a singular idea on literally anything. I have mine, Nozz has his, and so on. My particular background is the creative genesis for my ideas, but a geologist, or horticulturalist or a theist or a car wash worker who washes and philosophizes to himself all the live-long day, will ALL have their own ideas.

But you see, there actually is some pretty well-supported and growing evidence for the Big Bang, since we have (1) a definable point-location from which the existing universe is measurably expanding away from today, as we spak. (see: Hubble). As well, we have the measurable background radiation out there (tune your AM radio off any station and hear that white noise? That's the "signature" of the EM radiation burst, and its' slowly dying out, as one would suspect and hypothesize given the always retreating age of this past macro-event. Another bit of evidence of an old event.

Oh, but there's more scientific evidence out there. Go ahead: look it up and read a bit! Big Bang Theory

This is in opposition to the supporting "evidence" from the Christian perspective, which is that it did, indeed, just "poof" itself all into a completed and final-answer existence in one 6 day period where a lonely and bored God according to the bible which is our only source of info on the topic, and which literally millions ascribe to...).

As well, we're treated to the "Well, what do you think happened? What's your screwball idea, you arrogant scientists?" or..."It's all too complex so it haddah be God!" But only the Abrahamic one that the early Roman and Jewish theorists concocted out of previous lists of entities; Greek, Rome, and various other cultures. All handily combined into The One True god Conspiracy.

That'll be it alright. Must be. It's just too awesome to NOT be right!

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Vansdad

I see your anger and it is quite overwhelming actually. I am sorry for the delay but I am not always on here. Let's see...scientifically there is a connection or mathematical formula that ties all the universe together. Just like E=mc2 there is a connection between energy and matter. So obviously formula's like the one Einstien discovered are still waiting to be discovered. Ones that tie all sorts of things and maybe even life together.

I believe that this God not only knows them but created it this way. (rflmn: Good. At least you allow that this is only your belief, and is totally unsupportable with any evidence!) It is His knowlegde that built this universe, life and all. So vast we can hardly fathom it all. (rflmn: however, some of us who persue such thoughts have far more information and fathomliness [] than others who prefer, it seems, to not understand anything that might upset that tippy faith-based apple cart...)

I do not use or subscribe to the bibles' rendition, whatever that is. But purpose and deliberateness of life and the universe are real to me. I think it is beyond shallow to think all of this is just here for no reason. (rflmn: and so do I. You seem to think atheists don't believe there's any rationality behind anything unless it's coated in God Sauce™!)

Those are just my beliefs. (rflmn: Yup. You got that one right) And with a deliberate creation is the Creator. To me it would be like saying a car is just there. No it was put together for a purpose. Now just think of how much more complex life and the universe is. Are you saying it has no purpose? (rflmn: Uh... Nope. Never said that. Why do you keep bringing that false statement up? Just because we differ on the reason for this universe does not mean you are right and I am, by default, wrong!)

Come on you can't be serious. Anyway believe what you want and have a good time with it.

Oh puh-leeeeze! Come on now. The "art requires an artist" and "cars require a designer" arguments are straw-men all the way! There's absolutely NO logical connect between something that bio-logically™ evolved (small "e" this time...) in it's abilities and an engineered car, which is indeed designed to meet some rather obtuse criteria.

Like, for example, race-car handling or a high top speed or unusually low fuel consumption. But let's not forget, as Christian apologists always purposefully do, that a car has absolutely no way or means of trial-and-error testing and development on it's own and then modifying itself to improve it's design.

A bucket full of nuts and bolts are quite unlike the RNA/DNA situation, in which mutations always occur (or do you deny those?) and then on on to replicate, but obviously if that mutation was worthless or bad-a$$, it is dropped like a bad egg! On the other hand, if it's good, then obviously it will be successful all on it's own.

This silly argument is right up there in disfunctional absurdity with that old try-on: "imagine a tornado pausing over a junk yard and a Boeing 747 magically assembling itself as a result!" The necessary component parts are not in that junkyard, and the "desire" for a functioning plane to self-assemble is simply not there. And the mechanism for assembly is also missing, nor are there any guiding plans such as a previous and functional genome.

What a patently ludicrous comparison, and one that inevitably demos the lack of clear and logical thinking on the part of anyone who ever proposes it. As well, it's simply a cut & paste from AiG et al , absent any clear and critical thinking process.

As well, realize that a carbon-based RNA/DNA-moderated organism has all the necessary precursors floating around it to make literally anything within it's potential sphere, and it also replicates offspring at a phenomenal rate. As well, the sameprocess is happening with all the surrounding bacteria or whatever, simultaneously, with lots of diversification and branching out of functionalities obviously coincidentally happening. Car design is, by comparison, "serial".

Fact: There's more bacterial replicants created in a single liter of ocean water in a single 24 h period than there are ALL the cars, trucks, planes and trains that have EVER been built. EVER.

Now expand that to all the mega-liters of nice tepid-warm primordial amino-acid and other useful chemically-filled water in the entire global ocean, and allow for a nice slow 24 - 36h reproduction period. Oh but then.... then we multiply that by, ohhhh let's give it...uhmmmm... ±10 million years of non-stop trial and error Evolution (big E this time..).

Do you not think it's just possible that some useful and positive bio-logical™ "design" adaptations might occur in that vastly productive period? And that indeed, improved and more complex organisms do build on their "lesser" or not as well adapted previous DNA genomes?

Can you grasp that idea? And so will you now drop the "they say it ll just poofed into existence!!, out of nothing" accustation, at least as something coming from the scientific community? Because frankly, that's entirely the Christian purvue, never ours, as I have just proven.

And logically and demonstrably, in fact, that's exactly how we all got here. From bacteria [which mutate hourly to remain hard to treat...], to bats to bullfrogs to apes... to us. Simple, huh?

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by Vansdad

I am curious what an atheist "believes" is the way we came into existance.

It depends totally on the individual atheist and has nothing to do with atheism per se. It's good that you're curious, but it's not really a question that's able to be answered in any concrete way other than by listing a whole lot of varying opinions and a bunch of "i dunno"s.

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by mensaguy

This is the first time I have heard of an atheist messiah.

Nice to meet you. I accept tithes via MasterCard, Visa or PayPal. Thanks for your business, uh, I mean undying worship.

[Vansdad]

Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer

Vansdad, are you unfamiliar with Big Bang theory? Not just science-wise atheists subscribe to it. Science-wise theists do too

I am quite familiar thank you. But as you know it says nothing about how it got here to expand. It sounds like you are saying the universe had a beginning? So the next question is how it all began...