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To be clear, Arequipa . . . all that has been shown is that using our linear time perspective (which was non-existent back then) . . . the reports do not line up chronologically. Given that they were "event-oriented" and not chronologically oriented . . . that means very little really.
Given that you often toss terms in quotes, indicating that you coined them - I had a look and couldn't find it- into the mix or use them in a 'remote context' without explaining what you mean, so I have to guess at what you intended it to mean, it sounds like an admission that the Exodus in terms of sound historical validity cannot have happened as it says in the Bible.
That means a great deal in terms of religious faith. If you cannot trust the Bible on Factual claims, how on earth can any person claiming to have his head on the right way up take the Faith - claims seriously?
Also in historical terms, it is part of the puzzle filled in. We can give more attention to the evidence for the Hebrew nation evolving on site -in Canaan (as Jayhawker points out), and not get distracted into trying to find them in Egypt, much less Saudi Arabia.
If you see more significance as mythical proof of whatever you are pleased to believe, you are quite welcome.
Given that you often toss terms in quotes, indicating that you coined them - I had a look and couldn't find it- into the mix or use them in a 'remote context' without explaining what you mean, so I have to guess at what you intended it to mean, it sounds like an admission that the Exodus in terms of sound historical validity cannot have happened as it says in the Bible.
NOT exactly, Arequipa. It means that the Exodus events could still have happened . . . just NOT in the particular chronological order our linear time perspective places on historical events. An event-oriented non-linear time perspective means that the focus is on recording the occurrence of EVENTS . . . NOT when or in what order.
Continuing to look into this further, from a secular perspective, you could make the argument that Israel came out of the "Habiru" movement during Egypt's rule over Canaan. Yet I have reason to believe the Bible is telling a hidden view of history because as I stated before, things seem to be lining up pretty well around the things happening in the middle east.
My structure of my hypothesis so far......
Joseph and his family lived in Egypt around 1900 BC/BCE.
A new pharaoh arose around 1800 BC/BCE following the Hyksos invasion/takeover, and enslaved the Israelites within the northern region of Egypt.
Israel left Egypt around 1400 BC/BCE during Amenhotep II's reign.
Israel wandered in Saudi Arabia for 40 years afterward, and entered Canaan as invaders between 1380-1360 BC/BCE. At this time, Israel was a bunch of tribes, but wasn't established as a kingdom. Because they were foreign invaders, it would make sense for the canaanites to call them by another name, and the "Habiru" mentioned in some of the Amarna letters fits the bill.
....... Now I'm not saying every mention of the Habiru were the Isrealite people, but if they did in fact invade Canaan, they would most likely fall under this category. A lot of the areas egyptain vassal kings complained to the pharaoh about the Habiru, are some of the same areas that are most notably conquered by Israel. For instance, Shechem was very important to the Israelites during the days of Joshua, and this is an area mentioned in the Amarna letters to have gone over to the Habiru.
Again just a side note, I know a lot of historians believe Israel just came out of the established Canaanite tribes within the area. Yet we have established historical writings that mention people who were invading Egypt's controlled land in Canaan. These people couldn't have been of Canaanite origin totally, because they would have been under Eygpt's command. Yet the "Habiru" were seen as nomads and bandits.
Last edited by Heavenese; 11-17-2012 at 10:45 AM..
The four pillars of the xian faith hinge on the A&E myth, the flood, exodus (where they got the law) and of course jesus.
It is pretty obvious the first two are fairy tales, exodus could never had happened logistically, even in today's terms with 4x4s and the like, it would be a huge challenge just to supply the minimal amount of water to survive (2l per day per person under ideal conditions, do the math).
So if exodus did not happen, you are left with the jesus myth and pretty much depends a whole lot on the OT laws.
Any reasonable and rational thinker would conclude that the whole bible is meadow muffins and that it is just a collection of fanciful tales invented by men with very little contemporary history to support any of it.
NOT exactly, Arequipa. It means that the Exodus events could still have happened . . . just NOT in the particular chronological order our linear time perspective places on historical events. An event-oriented non-linear time perspective means that the focus is on recording the occurrence of EVENTS . . . NOT when or in what order.
But.... so.... uhmmmmm.... errrr...
We just toss it all up in the air when none of it works out and let it resort itself (with our subjective help of course...) on the way back down, but with huge and convenient re-adjustments of the chronology?
And with some very evasive limits, muttering disclaimers like "but since we can't know for sure what The Lord God had in mind, we'll have to assume..." in like a bunch of chili peppers in a stew...
Then that makes the bible just a bunch of unrelated, inconsistent and non-linear (in terms of how its all been presented at any rate)third-rate mumbo jumbo, subject to Convenient and Selective re-sorting?
How very compelling! I think I'll go to church tonight! PTL, PTL! For only He shall know how it all came to be!
....... Now I'm not saying every mention of the Habiru were the Isrealite people, but if they did in fact invade Canaan, they would most likely fall under this category. A lot of the areas egyptain vassal kings complained to the pharaoh about the Habiru, are some of the same areas that are most notably conquered by Israel. For instance, Shechem was very important to the Israelites during the days of Joshua, and this is an area mentioned in the Amarna letters to have gone over to the Habiru.
Again just a side note, I know a lot of historians believe Israel just came out of the established Canaanite tribes within the area. Yet we have established historical writings that mention people who were invading Egypt's controlled land in Canaan. These people couldn't have been of Canaanite origin totally, because they would have been under Eygpt's command. Yet the "Habiru" were seen as nomads and bandits.
RESPONSE:
Aren't you overlooking the obvious?
At this time the Amorites were expelled from Egypt, where they were known as the Hyksos. These Hyksos settled in Canaan also.
It's not credable that 2,300,000 Hebrews resided in Egypt and then spent 40 years in the desert without leaving any archaeological footprint, ie, no broken pottery, no burial sites, also, no written records or inscriptions by the Egyptions in Egypt concerning what would been a loss of about one third of their population and workforce.
Wikipedia summarizes:
" A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".
Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-19-2012 at 10:26 AM..
Reason: typo
We just toss it all up in the air when none of it works out and let it resort itself (with our subjective help of course...) on the way back down, but with huge and convenient re-adjustments of the chronology?
And with some very evasive limits, muttering disclaimers like "but since we can't know for sure what The Lord God had in mind, we'll have to assume..." in like a bunch of chili peppers in a stew...
Then that makes the bible just a bunch of unrelated, inconsistent and non-linear (in terms of how its all been presented at any rate)third-rate mumbo jumbo, subject to Convenient and Selective re-sorting?
How very compelling! I think I'll go to church tonight! PTL, PTL! For only He shall know how it all came to be!
I do love your posts, rifle . . . but there is no point bemoaning the fact that they were NOT linear thinkers and NOT time-driven in their perspective and recording of history. It is what it was.
Does it make the job of understanding and validating embellishment from fact . . . yes . . . but C'est la vie.
1) 600,000 Hebrew warriors and their families (about 2,300,000 people) We are told that such a multitude would have been more than the population of Egypt at that time. Yes, and Pharaoh agreed! “And he said unto his people, Behold, the people ofthe children of Israel are more and mightier thanwe:” (Exodus 1:7-9)
2) Is it credible that these 2,300,000 people spent 40 years in the desert but left no archaelogical footprint whatsoever not even a piece of pottery or a grave? There was no thrown away, worn-out clothing, no piles of leftover manna as it melted (Exodus 16:21), and they left no “soda bottles or gum wrappers” for them to follow. As others have brought out, the Israelites the critics are looking for never existed, because they do not believe God provided for them, but the truth is Israel “lacked nothing”(Nehemiah 9:21)! Their inability to find something is what they offer as proof!They only recently found (2002) the “workers’ village” for the pyramids of the Giza Plateau. It is estimated this town housed 20,000 people and was built out of bricks, whereas the children of Israel lived in tents. And this discovery only came after they had searched every inch of the Giza Plateau for the last two hundred years of archaeology.
Is it credible that 600,000 Hebrew warriors and their families (about 2,300,000 people), about 1/3 of the population of Egypt at the time, left Egypt and no reliable Egyptian record exists of this?
Is it credible that these 2,300,000 people spent 40 years in the desert but left no archaelogical footprint whatsoever not even a piece of pottery or a grave?[
Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University, with archaeology historian Neil Asher Silberman, raise these questions in "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text."]
In short, is the Exodus story just folklore?
Have you read or seen videos explaining their claims that the Exodus happened or just those that support your views? Take care.
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without explaining what you mean, so I have to guess at what you intended it to mean, it sounds like an admission that the Exodus in terms of sound historical validity cannot have happened as it says in the Bible.
Oh... right!
