Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So the big question is if the universe had a beginning what caused it?
Giant pink fairies. Can you prove that wrong?
All we know is that THIS universe had a 'beginning' and there are various theories as to how that happened. What we don't know is what was here before this present universe. It could well be that there has always been a universe..in some shape or other. This present universe could be one in a list of many recurring universes, each one different or even all the same.
Quote:
...but if the universe had a beginning this must mean at one time there was absolutley nothing,...
No it doesn't.
Quote:
Logically and rationally nothing can not produce something and disorder can not produce order, it has never been proven, that I know of.
Have you been listening to the nonsense given out by the 'Liars for Jesus'?
I am new to this (never posted in anything like this but thought I would give it a try.) Anyways I may be in the wrong forum but this one did say undisputed proof of Gods existence so I thought I might pose this topic of discussion. First of all I do believe in the existence of God and more specifically the God of the Christian Bible. Not trying to sway anyone to what I believe but just discussing a few things. If there is anyone out there that does not believe in the existence of a god (any god), I would like to know how you refute the evidence of the universe being finite and having a beginning. The evidence from the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the universe is expanding (seen Hubble telescope), the radiation from the big bang (found by Penzias and Wilson, 1965), the great galaxy seeds (COBE satelite), and the Einsteins theory of general relativity. Some of these have pretty strong evidence that the universe did have a beginning. I am not saying this proves the existence of a god, but if the universe had a beginning this must mean at one time there was absolutley nothing, and nothing means nothing does it not...? So the big question is if the universe had a beginning what caused it? Logically and rationally nothing can not produce something and disorder can not produce order, it has never been proven, that I know of. I do not claim to know everything and never will. Just want to hear others thoughts on this topic. What do Atheists say about this?
Ok so you will agree that this universe had a "beginning" and you say there are various theories as to how it came into existence. Just curious as to what those are and lets forget (right now) about the other universe' that may or may not have been or are still out there. Lets just discuss what we know about the present universe. Lets talk about things we do know not some other universe that we have no absolutley no evidence for at all. But what we are sure of is we are in a universe now. So no I can not prove the other universe that may be possibly out there wrong (just like pink fairies) but if we have no evidence for it at all it is just an idea or another "magical" theory, no evidence to base it off of at all. So lets just talk about what we know about this universe.
So no I can not prove the other universe that may be possibly out there wrong (just like pink fairies) but if we have no evidence for it at all it is just an idea or another "magical" theory, no evidence to base it off of at all.
.
Hurrah! (hat's in the air) now you're getting it! So now all you have to do is apply that to god belief.
btw, You should 'quote' the post you are answering so that we know who you are responding to.
Hurrah! (hat's in the air) now you're getting it! So now all you have to do is apply that to god belief.
btw, You should 'quote' the post you are answering so that we know who you are responding to.
Sorry about that just learning how to use this.
BTW, I am not saying I can prove the "existence" of a god. First of all what is the definition of "proof" or "proven"? I can not pack up the god I believe in, in a box and show him to you that is impossible and I do NOT claim to be able to. Either way to believe in a god or not to believe in a god takes a step of faith. Neither one can be "proven", we can just look at the evidence that we have. I would just like to know again what I said in the first post how do "atheist's" refute the evidence of what the COBE satelite found and others. The evidence points to "something" that precisly "began" the universe with "precision". Have you ever looked at all the different anthropic constants in the Earth? Some that if they were changed by the slightest percent or degree, life would not be possible, oxygen level, gravity on earth, carbon dioxide level...and many others, over 120 that we know of. These again do not prove a "god" but how could these happen by chance. It looks like this poses a big problem for someone that believes they happen by chance. What would be the chance that a junkyard would produce a mercedes benz by itself? Again I would like to here your response to how this happenned, (evolution does not produce better results over an extended period of time). It takes faith to believe one or the other, it is just a matter of which makes more sense to put your faith in. I know you will have something "smart" to say back to that but again give me your theory, so far yoy have not given me any reason to doubt what I believe. Love ya friend, hope we can talk civil about this and not be downgrading one another. Will you agree that it takes faith to believe one or the other?
I would just like to know again what I said in the first post how do "atheist's" refute the evidence of what the COBE satelite found and others. The evidence points to "something" that precisly "began" the universe with "precision". Have you ever looked at all the different anthropic constants in the Earth? Some that if they were changed by the slightest percent or degree, life would not be possible, oxygen level, gravity on earth, carbon dioxide level...and many others, over 120 that we know of. These again do not prove a "god" but how could these happen by chance. It looks like this poses a big problem for someone that believes they happen by chance.
What would be the chance that a junkyard would produce a mercedes benz by itself? Again I would like to here your response to how this happenned, (evolution does not produce better results over an extended period of time). It takes faith to believe one or the other, it is just a matter of which makes more sense to put your faith in.
I know you will have something "smart" to say back to that but again give me your theory, so far yoy have not given me any reason to doubt what I believe. Love ya friend, hope we can talk civil about this and not be downgrading one another. Will you agree that it takes faith to believe one or the other?
Oh my... and I thought you were a common sense poster.
1) we evolved into our existing organistic formats, those which FIT the exiting niches, because that's what the natural selection process of evolution does, dude? It doesn't fit the niche to the organism, silly person, but rather the other way around!
Because if we existed in a colder, hotter, wetter, drier or less/more O2 rich environment (all of which either exist now or have existed on this planet over the past millennia), then the resulting organisms have been precisely fitted to those conditions. And logically, they have been, btw. Easily visible anywhere, any time!
In fact, we do indeed have widely hotter, colder, drier and wetter climates on this highly variable planet as we speak (the Arctic, the Amazon jungles, the Sahara desert, the Pacific NW rain forests, and so on ad infinitum), all of which duplicate an environment that differs from some stable unchanging ecosystem you imagine that God has created, one that's just like the well-kept lawn grounds of your local Presbyterian Church!
2) We do not see a Mercedes or Boeing 747 assembling itself out of a tornado passing briefly over a junkyard for a number of so very logical reasons, and anyone who uses this tiresome and, frankly, stupid, analogy is simply hoping that atheists are also equally unthinking and non-critically stupid.
Problem is, a living DNA-based organism is indeed capable of self-reproduction and genetic improvement out of a chaotic situation, given multiple-millionos of well-documented and counted years. Not so with a partially assembled 747 jetliner after a single tornado pass.
As well, all the necessary but very simple components of any living organism are available in massive quantities in our primordial oceans and swamps, while all the necessary components for a brand-new 747 are NOT available for chance incorporation into your wishful but banal aircraft. Finally, there's absolutely no trial and error testing process for that assembling airframe. Now is there?
So honestly now (Hee heee... now there's a novel approach, huh? Honesty!) how can you begin to compare such a silly idea to the realities of a naturally occurring system? Why do you persist in pressing for such an EPIC FAIL?
Must be how they have taught you to think. Not for yourself, obviously.
As for your absolute claim that... "evolution does not produce better results over an extended period of time!". It takes faith to believe one or the other, it is just a matter of which makes more sense to put your faith in."... you are easily and demonstrably wrong. You don't have even the most basic clue as to exactly how the process of Evolution actually works, now do you? Nope: because it's clearly not "Cats giving birth to dogs overnight, or a Mercedes assembling itself in a junkyard overnight! Then I'll believe!", nope. That would be magic, which is not how Evolution works.
Oh, you do understand? OK then: prove it: list just 5 basic key elements and components of the process of Evolution as you understand that we believe it to be, so that we can see you at least understand how it's SUPPOSED TO work. OK? It's called understanding the argument of your opponents, OK?
Show us! OK? I'll be patient, and will even give you time to look it up and then cut & paste!
First, no I dont claim to "know" the evolution argument and "5 basic key elements". But I do understand that Cats can not give birth to dogs overnight, of course they can not. But isnt this what evolution teaches? I am sure your going to say no. But if you say it does not how then are there many different forms of life and non life if it did come from a common "decent". Not sure I worded that right, but anyway it goes back to the first form of life or non life that evoution says was here, how did that come into existence, again how did nothing create somthing, I still have not seen anyone give a valid answer to that.
First, no I dont claim to "know" the evolution argument and "5 basic key elements". But I do understand that Cats can not give birth to dogs overnight, of course they can not. But isnt this what evolution teaches? I am sure your going to say no. But if you say it does not how then are there many different forms of life and non life if it did come from a common "decent". Not sure I worded that right, but anyway it goes back to the first form of life or non life that evoution says was here, how did that come into existence, again how did nothing create somthing, I still have not seen anyone give a valid answer to that.
Oh my goodness. You really expect to be taken seriously when you come out with tripe like that?
Move along folks ...it's just another 'Craig's List' teenager that thinks he can stun us all with his 'evilushun says that lizards turn into elephants overnight'.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
