Who teaches better morals, St. Paul or Mark Twain? (exist, religion, gays)
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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
No interpretation is necessary. It's what God has commanded. That's enough. The sad thing though, is that you cannot even account for morality....period. It's just your idea of what you like or not. If you don't think stealing is ok....so what? That's just your opinion. That has no bearing on anyone else.
No interpretation is necessary. It's what God has commanded. That's enough.
And you know this how?? What assurance do you have it is not the whim of man?
Quote:
The sad thing though, is that you cannot even account for morality....period. It's just your idea of what you like or not. If you don't think stealing is ok....so what? That's just your opinion. That has no bearing on anyone else.
You cannot account for the morality YOU espouse. It's just your idea of what you like or not from the Bible. I am a Christian, believe in God, and we disagree on what God has told us in the Bible . . . let alone commanded. So what makes YOUR view true and mine not true????
Here's the answer you've refused to acknowledge since it was posted.
I don't see morality as an atheist/theist thing. It's just a humanity thing. Anybody can account for it as I have with the history of civilization.
Yet....if there is no way of defining morality and there is no absolute morality, all you've got is just anybody's opinion....as you have shown with the history of civilization. Using that....you have no objective way to measure whether Paul or Mark Twain was "more" moral. You might as well be asking what sleeps faster....Wednesday or Blue?
Are you willing to concede the point that true morality can only come from God? Because if not....it's pretty much pointless to argue the specifics of it, because we'll get bogged down in pointless details.
Yet....if there is no way of defining morality and there is no absolute morality, all you've got is just anybody's opinion....as you have shown with the history of civilization. Using that....you have no objective way to measure whether Paul or Mark Twain was "more" moral. You might as well be asking what sleeps faster....Wednesday or Blue?
Now you're just regurgitating talking points from Fundavangelist Apologetics 101.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Are you willing to concede the point that true morality can only come from God? Because if not....it's pretty much pointless to argue the specifics of it, because we'll get bogged down in pointless details.
Answering questions with a plethora of questions never advances the conversation.
But then many of us here don't think you ever want to advance a conversation.
Morality must still come as a definition of human rights. Paul, returning a slave, does not have much of a focus on human rights. Nor does he by following the ten commandments, the first 5 of which pertain to the egotism of their deity.
Huck has a higher humanistic principal, seeing the the treatment of slaves being cruel and wrong. He does not need a book to tell him that. He sees the human experience and the yearning for freedom. Huck is therefore the more moral of the two as he embodies the good of preserving human rights, even if he had never heard that particular term.
Even if you say the bible is the definitive resource on morals, there are very many interpretations. Those who want to extract clear-cut rules from it have a wide variety of takes on it--there is no concensus at all. The ten commandments are about as clear as the bible gets, and even then there are differing opinions on what exactly they mean in different situations. The bible is not a clear-cut book of rules. That's why even among Christians it is the responsibility of the individual to learn every day.
I'm not saying the bible is bunk. I'm saying that to learn to be more like Jesus is an ongoing lesson.
Where do I get these opinions from? My parents are the main source. My father has a bachelor's degree in divinity, is a registered minister, and my parents were missionaries in India for 20 years. I'm not Christian myself, but I admire my parents a lot. They live a life of loving others.
The question of Paul and Huck boils down to two different moral standards. The first is basing morality on the say-so of an invisible deity. This assumes that whatever said deity prescribes as moral, is automatically moral, no matter how it affects others. The second moral standard is basing morality on how your actions impact others. The former is merely blind obedience. The second is rooted in integrity. If the former is true and mindless subservience to the whims of a deity is superior then Paul would be more moral. If honor and caring about other people is superior, then Huck is more moral. True integrity isn't based on someone else's say-so, therefore Huck is more moral.
Answering questions with a plethora of questions never advances the conversation.
But then many of us here don't think you ever want to advance a conversation.
Agreed. So I think we need to lay the groundwork. We've established that if morality is just my opinion, or your opinion, or society's opinion, then it's toothless--and it has no hold on what anyone else says or does or believes. Until we establish that morality comes from something higher than us....we're just going to be arguing a meaningless point.
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