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I must admit, I'm extremely grateful that I didn't live in the neighborhood that was in the path of that wandering, invading, bronze aged desert tribe that purported to be "god's" people.
Imagine, seeing all the innocent neighboring young boys being killed, and all the young girls being dragged off to be the soldiers sex slaves.
And we are suppose to love a god that orders that?
There is nothing in this world that can suggest there is anything but pure evil in any sentient being that would order such an act.
I really think the "real" God had absolutely nothing to do with all that. This "god ordering genocide" stuff in the Torah was just Hebrew propaganda to make Jews feel their god, yahweh was on their side when they went against their enemies. Every sacred writings of any culture has their god ordering the same kind of thing. It was just a fluke that the Old Testament has survived to this day and that Christianity based their religion off it.
I must admit, I'm extremely grateful that I didn't live in the neighborhood that was in the path of that wandering, invading, bronze aged desert tribe that purported to be "god's" people.
Imagine, seeing all the innocent neighboring young boys being killed, and all the young girls being dragged off to be the soldiers sex slaves.
And we are suppose to love a god that orders that?
There is nothing in this world that can suggest there is anything but pure evil in any sentient being that would order such an act.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
That depends on your outlook...
Point of view of the young boys: entirely negative
Point of view of the young girls: entirely negative
Point of view of the soldiers getting the sex slaves: not so negative
Point of view of the parents of the young boys and girls: entirely negative
Point of view of the wives of the soldiers: probably negative
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm seeing a pattern develop here.
... date earlier than the Babylonian captivity? Isn't that a little strange, considering that Moses lived hundreds of years earlier and supposedly wrote the Torah?
The Babylonian captivity was preceded by the siege, capture and pillaging of Jerusalem in 598 BCE. Had there been Biblical manuscripts, it seems that Jerusalem Temple would have been the most likely place to keep them, and the Temple was destroyed.
The Temple was rebuilt by Herod the Great, but that too was destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish War of 70 CE.
In that neither the Babylonians nor the Romans would have had any interest in preserving Jewish manuscripts, is it not reasonable to guess that they would have been destroyed along with the Temple?
Again, it was just a fluke that the Dead Sea Scrolls survived and were uncovered. If it was an act of God, why didn't He just let all the original NT writings get put into jars and buried to be discovered in 1948 as well? Doesn't make a bit of sense, but then I don't pretend to know the mind of God.
... date earlier than the Babylonian captivity? Isn't that a little strange, considering that Moses lived hundreds of years earlier and supposedly wrote the Torah?
When a scroll of the Old Testament would get worn the scribes would re-do it and destroy the old manuscript.
Again, it was just a fluke that the Dead Sea Scrolls survived and were uncovered. If it was an act of God, why didn't He just let all the original NT writings get put into jars and buried to be discovered in 1948 as well? Doesn't make a bit of sense, but then I don't pretend to know the mind of God.
Maybe God did just like the Dead Sea Scrolls with the New Testament. Maybe we just havn't found them yet. After around 2,000 years we finally found the Dead Sea Scrolls.
But the three oldest uncial manuscripts are good enough.
Maybe God did just like the Dead Sea Scrolls with the New Testament. Maybe we just havn't found them yet. After around 2,000 years we finally found the Dead Sea Scrolls.
But the three oldest uncial manuscripts are good enough.
I sure hope He did. If we discovered the originals, 99% of the arguments here on eternal torment, salvation by faith alone, and predestination would evaporate overnight. What a sinfully delicious thought.
I sure hope He did. If we discovered the originals, 99% of the arguments here on eternal torment, salvation by faith alone, and predestination would evaporate overnight. What a sinfully delicious thought.
Why do you think that? They would still inappropriately translate "aiwn" as "for ever" or "everlasting" or "world" or "never" and its adjectival form AIWNION as "eternal" or "everlasting."
You don't believe in predestination? Why do you believe the original autographs would not say "we were chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world"?
Why do you think that? They would still inappropriately translate "aiwn" as "for ever" or "everlasting" or "world" or "never" and its adjectival form AIWNION as "eternal" or "everlasting."
You don't believe in predestination? Why do you believe the original autographs would not say "we were chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world"?
Well....ahhhh.....it would be assuming that the originals were God-inspired enough that the writers had the foresight to realize how such words could be used in both ways and therefore took deliberate care under instructions from God to avoid a word that could be read both ways.
Don't you ever wish, Eusebius, that Jesus had said, "Look, you goats, you need to taught that it is better to give a person a piece of bread and clothed the naked than to be selfish and keep it all to yourselves. So I'm going to purge you of your sins with fire. But this is not going to last forever, just temporary until you've been refined like gold." Could there then be any mistaking what Jesus meant, unlike what we have now where we endlessly argue and bicker and start wars over what Jesus' words actually meant simply because He worded it so badly? I mean...I mean who in their right minds chooses a word like "aion" which is the only word in the Greek language which can mean the opposite of itself; temporary AND forever????????
And THIS is inspired by God?????????? GAWD!!
Re predestination, no that is a heresy from Paul. I have absolutely no use for Paul. He so bastardized Jesus' original gospel that he should have been stoned. Come to think of it, they did stone him but they didn't do a good-enough job of it.
I'm an atheist as you can easily see from my name, but, this question is just as bad for them as finding evolutionary gaps are for me.
According to the bible (and memory) in Exodus, roughly 600,000 able bodied men went with wives, children, elderly. So I've heard high end estimates of 2.5 million.
On the other hand, when you actually go and visit many of the cities mentioned (and most biblical scholars are sure these are the cities according to Hebrew text found in the ruins with other amplifying data such as surrounding towns) they were only a few thousand, probably 3 to 5 thousand people.
For me personally, I think the story of Moses is a fictitious story told around the campfire and amplified over time about oppressed slaves coming out of Egypt and making their way to the promised land with the help of their "One true God". So there were probably only a few thousand that were also joined over time with people from Canaan, Jordon, and Mesopotamia. Most were fleeing slavery or at least a lower class type citizen who was working and nor reaping the fruits of one's own labor. They joined together in solidarity with the promise of no longer being an oppressed people under God.
With all that being said, the areas are large, much of the civilizations were destroyed and burned leaving little. When cities were destroyed, often the stones would be reused by a neighboring civ. It's amazing that some of the best archaeological finds have only been in the last 15 years such as The Tel Dan Inscription which is considered the first authentic historical Evidence of King David from the Bible. These were only found in 1993 and 1995.
So in conclusion, it truely is trying to find a needle in a haystack. I don't believe and I don't think the evidence supports the 600,000 to 2.5 million stated in Exodus, but I do believe some made it out of Egypt. But it is so many square miles, add wars, reused materials, and nature... it is as hard as finding the missing link!
I love the history of this region. It is facinating.
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