Again a pastor laments of decline of Christian impact in America (salvation, soul)
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Many think it's a good thing to have hope and peace through faith in Jesus Christ. Certainly people like Brian Head Welch who was suicidal and hopelessly addicted to meth before getting saved. God cured his addiction overnight.
Oh yeah, I forgot. Some people are just more special than others. Brian Head Welch (whoever he is) was considered special so he had his addiction miraculously cured overnight. And while this God of yours is tending to the needs of a meth addict, thousands of very un-special children die every day from abuse and starvation. I guess their soulful little prayers asking God to help them just didn't measure up to whatever this Brian character said. Or maybe God just picked Brian's name out of a hat ... ding ding ding ding, Brian, you're today's winner!! Tell 'em what he's won, Bob! Well, Brian, you've won yourself an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God! That's right, for one full day, you will have the unlimited services of a God who can do anything (except change history, do anything that interferes with his divine plan, or makes you the ruler of the universe)!!! You know what the Bible says, Brian. Ask and you shall receive, and today, starting in one hour, you can ask away and be guaranteed a response!
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
That's not something Brian did just with his imagination.
No, that's something Brian did with his willpower. Everyone who is successful kicking an addiction does so "overnight" for the most part - because at some point, the person indulges in his/her addiction one final time and never goes back, which is essentially "overnight."
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I suppose you think it would be better for him to remain lost and hopeless?
Now he's just addicted to a different kind of drug.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I've seen hardcore tatted up convicts get saved and become good people with hearts of gold. You gonna tell me that is bad?
These "hardcore" convicts wanted to be good people. It's a shame that they needed God as a crutch in order to become good people - but God didn't wave a magic wand and turn violent felons into purring kittens. Those convicts only pursued a path they wanted to travel, and if not God, then something else would have given them that push - without the residual delusion that is left in its wake. Moreover, it doesn't say much for your God if he was willing to miraculously de-criminalize these criminals only AFTER they committed their crimes. I bet that's a great comfort to the victims of those convicts.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You can't have a church that drastically goes against the teachings and nature of Jesus Christ and yet still claim to be Christian. Christian in name only isn't Christian.
Yeah we know ... it's the standard 'No True Scotsman' fallacy that most deity worshipers love using. If they don't believe in God in precisely the same way I believe in God, then they're not true Christians. (Meanwhile, those people are in a church down the street saying the exact same thing about YOU and YOUR beliefs).
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Most wars and death tolls have not involved religion at all. What does that say about atheists or having a godless society?
While I really hate being the bearer of bad news (well, not really in this case), humanity has survived just fine without Christianity. There have been at least 94,000 years of human existence with another 4,000 years of recorded civilizations before Christianity ever stumbled upon the scene. By the time Christianity did arrive, just about everything that was going to happen before the Renaissance already had and Christianity rode the wave created by the last few thousand years of history.
As for having a godless society, no one is saying that. We're wanting a secular society. If you want to pray to your gods, feel free, but society itself ought to be secular. That means no religious laws or trying to sneak religion in through the back doors of our schools, courthouses, libraries, and government offices. Look at the most successful nations in the world right now - namely Scandinavia - which is very secular bordering on atheistic. I'll hold those nations up as a model for a godless society in the modern era. Oh yeah, and *chuckle* the nation who holds $2 trillion of our debt and is likely to usurp America as the richest nation in the world is ... *chuckles again* yeah, atheist. Atheism is official in China even if some people are god-believers.
Oh yeah, I forgot. Some people are just more special than others. Brian Head Welch (whoever he is) was considered special so he had his addiction miraculously cured overnight.
Yeah, back in my day the special guy was Nicky Cruz, the prize catch of preacher to the gangs of New York City, David Wilkerson.
Even as a Christian I never understood why I was supposed to be impressed by this or how I was supposed to reconcile it with all the people still lying in gutters with the DT's begging for death.
The implicit message is that Cruz and Welch and everyone else with a "miraculous" testimony was somehow more worthy and sincere. The party line never varies: if god doesn't "touch" you it's your fault somehow, but if god does come through, oh boy, let's have a party (alcohol-free, of course). And maybe write a book or make a movie to trumpet it.
The other subliminal message is if god did it for them he can do it for you too, so shed your secret sins or impure thoughts or lingering doubts, confess your unconfessed sins, let go of the parts of your life you haven't "submitted" to him, etc (because you DO have those by definition if god hasn't come through for you yet) and get with the program.
As a pastor once said, "The church is the only army that shoots its own wounded".
Haha! I remember that book, "The Cross and the switchblade"! Funnily enough, I was allowed to read it younger than I was allowed to read the Lord of the Rings. Apparently, hobbits and wizards were too potentially damaging, but reading about Cruz making zip guns and having sex with the gang women was ok, because he got saved at the end...
Christianity is dying because its leaders refuse, in the face of plummeting membership, to adapt their beliefs and principles to a 21st century mindset. They insist on preaching the Dark Ages/Medieval philosophy of nuts like Augustine, Anselm and Aquinas. People today are just too sophisticated to follow all this blood sacrifice, eternal burning in hell, original sin and other cult beliefs. Christian leaders keep it anyway, not on principle, but because they're afraid rocking the boat will also rock the pedestals of power and $$$'s they've elevated themselves upon.
Christianity is dying because its leaders refuse, in the face of plummeting membership, to adapt their beliefs and principles to a 21st century mindset. They insist on preaching the Dark Ages/Medieval philosophy of nuts like Augustine, Anselm and Aquinas. People today are just too sophisticated to follow all this blood sacrifice, eternal burning in hell, original sin and other cult beliefs. Christian leaders keep it anyway, not on principle, but because they're afraid rocking the boat will also rock the pedestals of power and $$$'s they've elevated themselves upon.
Well said, Thrill. They are indeed reluctant to acknowledge their errors. How do you regain confidence when you acknowledge such a huge breach?
Well its good to have criticism but the part about the 21 century makes no sense. In general the 21 century has hit the lowest of all low's, breaking the contract with next generations in every way imaginable. Money, debt, resource's, pollution, zero regulation in communication quality, zero example on behalf of media adult in the community, nothing but selfishness. Even education is a problem competing with the marketing priorities from the deranged adult world which tailors and suits itself with all.. So there are no morals being expressed anywhere and are oppressed as being old fashioned. Get what you earn , there is no interest in the wholesomeness in well being whatsoever, so on what basis does this century have even a right to propose an intelligent ethical view, using itself.
Well its good to have criticism but the part about the 21 century makes no sense. In general the 21 century has hit the lowest of all low's, breaking the contract with next generations in every way imaginable. Money, debt, resource's, pollution, zero regulation in communication quality, zero example on behalf of media adult in the community, nothing but selfishness. Even education is a problem competing with the marketing priorities from the deranged adult world. The 21 century will be the futures perfect goof up model. So there are no morals being expressed anywhere and are oppressed as being old fashioned. Get what you earn , there is no interest in the wholesomeness in well being whatsoever, so on what basis does this century have even a right to propose an intelligent overview, using itself ?
I would ask you what standard of morality you are judging by, and what time period are you using as a reference? I often see claims about how America is in a moral decline, or that the world is falling apart, but rarely do I see anyone even make an attempt to quantify this, and if they do it is essentially a complaint that not everyone follows their particular religion.
Stephen Pinker wrote a very interesting book using violent death ( murder, death in war, etc...) as a proxy for morality, and saw a surprising trend. Instead of the world getting worse, based on that metric, it has gotten markedly better, and is still continuing the trend...
In my opinion, I am not sure it is overall getting better, but I don't think it is worse in any meaningful way. Minorities have always been oppressed, the wealthy and powerful have always played by different rules, humanity has always demonized and fought anyone who can be classified as "them" instead of "us". In some ways we are making improvements, in other ways we are turning a blind eye. My gut feel is is balances out to more of the same old humanity...
I would ask you what standard of morality you are judging by, and what time period are you using as a reference? I often see claims about how America is in a moral decline, or that the world is falling apart, but rarely do I see anyone even make an attempt to quantify this, and if they do it is essentially a complaint that not everyone follows their particular religion.
Stephen Pinker wrote a very interesting book using violent death ( murder, death in war, etc...) as a proxy for morality, and saw a surprising trend. Instead of the world getting worse, based on that metric, it has gotten markedly better, and is still continuing the trend...
In my opinion, I am not sure it is overall getting better, but I don't think it is worse in any meaningful way. Minorities have always been oppressed, the wealthy and powerful have always played by different rules, humanity has always demonized and fought anyone who can be classified as "them" instead of "us". In some ways we are making improvements, in other ways we are turning a blind eye. My gut feel is is balances out to more of the same old humanity...
-NoCapo
Well, education says quite a bit. Increasing difficulty teachers have establishing general interest and order in some area's.
Well, education says quite a bit. Increasing difficulty teachers have establishing general interest and order in some area's.
In some ways that is a good example of what has me confused. We don't have to go back very far to get to a point where education was only for a few, where literacy was not common. In fact it has only been for the last couple centuries that your average Joe was literate, much less well educated. Today it is considered a shame that anyone can make it to adulthood without being literate, able to do at least basic math, and even algebra in most cases. We expect kids to go on to college of some sort as a rule not an exception. It seems to me that the problems we face are problems of our success. No longer is it a once in a lifetime chance to go to school, no longer is it exceptional to be educated. It is so common that perhaps that is why it is not valued as highly.
No, would argue that our educational problems today don't show some sort of systemic decay, rather they show human nature adapting to our current level of expectations.
In some ways that is a good example of what has me confused. We don't have to go back very far to get to a point where education was only for a few, where literacy was not common. In fact it has only been for the last couple centuries that your average Joe was literate, much less well educated. Today it is considered a shame that anyone can make it to adulthood without being literate, able to do at least basic math, and even algebra in most cases. We expect kids to go on to college of some sort as a rule not an exception. It seems to me that the problems we face are problems of our success. No longer is it a once in a lifetime chance to go to school, no longer is it exceptional to be educated. It is so common that perhaps that is why it is not valued as highly.
No, would argue that our educational problems today don't show some sort of systemic decay, rather they show human nature adapting to our current level of expectations.
-NoCapo
My original observation was the 21 century has no business getting into ethical ideals using its own century as though there is something to learn.. Its broke in debt and completely lost. If the bills cannot be paid there is no say or leading value in these ethical area's . They've broken the contract with future generations.
Last edited by Drew K; 06-07-2014 at 02:52 AM..
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