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I don't recall anyone here saying that the Bible is bunk, though many of the representations of God in the Old Testament have been. Pretty much the view that has been put forward here is that the doctrine that the Bible in its entirety is from plenary inspiration and the inerrant final authority in all matters of faith and practice is bunk. There is a HUGE difference, and the Bible as a whole is considered a tool for that Spirit that you are guided by with no need for it to be "authority" in itself.
If only everyone saw this as clearly as you do, nate! Still can't rep you yet.
People who want to believe the Bible is bunk . . . .
What about people who "want" to believe the opposite? I'm sure you can speak as a competent spokesman for that side, so let's hear what you have to say.
Or will you contend that you don't "want" to believe, but you are grudgingly forced to by a preponderance of evidence.
The truth is most seminary students graduate with an entirely different view of the Bible than when they went in. Four years of hard honest analysis of the Bible turns them completely around. They come out of the seminaries thoroughly disillusioned about the Bible's veracity. They can no longer deny the reality that the Bible is a man-made text full of errors and inconsistencies.
Many of them give up Christianity at that point and go on to other occupations they feel they can live with. Still others figure they've invested all this money and time and have run out of options and cannot afford to change course yet again; they have plans for marriage and starting a family and so they secretly become atheist/agnostic even while they are openly professing faith in Jesus from the pulpit. Still others bury this cataclysmic revelation deep in their subconscious, deny it and go onto pastoring churches having convinced themselves the Bible is a rock-solid foundation upon which to build their careers. Many wake up to the lie at various points in their career; they cannot live with themselves and the dishonesty they have to face every single day. Bart Ehrman and Dan Barker are but two of the most prominent pastors turned atheists/agnostics.
Former ministers have started an online service called The Clergy Project to help clergy through this difficult transition of leaving their Christian faith:
The Clergy Project is a confidential online community for active and former professional clergy/religious leaders who do not hold supernatural beliefs. The Clergy Project launched on March 21st, 2011.
Currently, the community's 602 Forum Members use it to support, network and discuss what it's like being an unbelieving professional in a religious community or being an unbeliever as ex-clergy in their world.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-08-2014 at 01:57 AM..
What about people who "want" to believe the opposite? I'm sure you can speak as a competent spokesman for that side, so let's hear what you have to say.
Or will you contend that you don't "want" to believe, but you are grudgingly forced to by a preponderance of evidence.
My side? 2000 years of verifiable evidence. I am good with that.
My side? 2000 years of verifiable evidence. I am good with that.
You mean 2000 years of unproven claims. If there was actual verifiable evidence, there wouldn't even be a debate about God ... only debates on the best way to worship.
Contrary to popular belief, atheists aren't simply being childishly defiant. Nor are we addicts of atheism living in denial that we have a problem. We didn't become atheists because we hate Christians or to buck society or to make a statement or to simply be different.
No, the huge HUGE majority of atheists became atheists because there simply was no evidence to justify devoting one's life to a supernatural entity and using an ancient book (filled with every atrocity known to Man) as the final authority on how to live our lives.
If there was verifiable evidence, then we atheists would have been more than happy to jump on the God bandwagon. You see, we're all fairly lazy creatures. We seek pleasure and avoid pain, and we generally don't make things hard on ourselves just because we thought it would be fun. Thus living as an atheist in a deeply religious culture is NOT an easy thing to do. Not only does it make us a target for ridicule, mistrust, suspicion, and even hatred, it also ostracizes us from a major part of many people's social network. Where I live, ask just about anyone what they do in their spare time, and they'll tell you all about their church activities.
I dare say, none of us would subject ourselves to that kind of hardship if there was verifiable, empirical evidence that God - the Christian God - actually existed and the Bible was actually true.
But there just ... isn't.
If we believed in the Bible, then based on the same type of evidence, we would also have to believe with 100% certainty that alien abductions are actually happening, Bigfoot is running around in our forests, just about every large inland lake has a monster living in it, and TV psychics are really communicating with the dead.
How many of those things do yo adamantly believe in with the same conviction you believe in God? Yeah, I'm guessing none.
My side? 2000 years of verifiable evidence. I am good with that.
Hello Mr5150.
The key word here is "verifiable." If the bible is true, then the events contained therein should indeed be verifiable. Please allow me to choose a single event, and you can offer the corroborating evidence that verifies it. I ask you this because I am unaware of any evidence for this event outside of the bible, although historically one would expect lots of records: the captivity of the Israelites in Egypt.
I don't recall anyone here saying that the Bible is bunk, though many of the representations of God in the Old Testament have been. Pretty much the view that has been put forward here is that the doctrine that the Bible in its entirety is from plenary inspiration and the inerrant final authority in all matters of faith and practice is bunk. There is a HUGE difference, and the Bible as a whole is considered a tool for that Spirit that you are guided by with no need for it to be "authority" in itself.
Even a full on atheist such as myself, who goes a step further and does not see it as a particular tool of deity to communicate with us in any way, shape or form, does not see the Bible as valueless. Nor do I think we should be ignorant of it, since it has been so influential in western culture.
As a former denizen of a bible institute I probably am more familiar with the Bible and the inerrancy doctrines than most fundamentalist believers, and I have on occasion used as a touchstone in my life, pithy Biblical nuggets of truth. Because there IS truth in there. It's just that my definition of "truth" is "that which accurately models reality" as opposed to "that which can be made to support my dogma".
To address the OP more directly, it certainly seems as though this depends on what seminary one attends. I have several friends who became Roman Catholic priests (I was raised in the RCC) and they related to me that the classes offered there on the history of the bible were unflinchingly honest. That said, the RCC is a little bit outside of the folks you are talking about because they hold the bible to be neither historically accurate nor the only source of definitive information about god. They do however hold the bible to be absolute spiritual truth, and simply trust that god preserved that truth by his will throughout the evolution of the modern bible. It was by the will of god that some things remained while others were removed.
All of that said, I left the RCC some time ago, so obviously I am not in full agreement with their doctrines. I'm merely relating their point of view.
My side? 2000 years of verifiable evidence. I am good with that.
LOL, on that note, tell the holy spirit "hi" for me.
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Still can't rep you yet.
