Christian morality: an atheist's point of view (choices, power, Moses)
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We have ZERO evidence at this time that a god exists.
We have MUCH evidence at this time than humans invent gods (random citation: Cargo Cults).
And as I have explained to you in many posts in the past when ALL the available data suggests X.... and NONE of the available data suggests Y..... then it is simply rational to assume X.
This exceedingly simply point however appears to escape you. Likely because you contrive to ignore it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Sorry, I'm quite confident that your black and white system would quickly meet gray areas.
This is pure comedy here. While attempting to rebut another user you are openly demonstrating why you are so desperate to believe in god without having an ounce of evidence to suggest any such entity exists.
YOU are desperate to have a system that has no gray. That is why you NEED to think there is a "god" and some kind of objective morality.
The point most atheists will make to you is ALL or morality is a grey area. The best we can do is produce facts and data and arguments and DISCOURSE to make sense of the grey and get through the fog. We can not claim a perfect and all applicable moral system. Nor do we either want to or try to.
Rather we realise that morality is not about fixed rules but wisdom and discourse. It is contextual. We greet each moral choice as it comes and we do so in the light of both the arguments AND the experience that has come before us.
You throw out "gray" like it is a rebutal when in fact it is the POINT.
And all the while you pretend your "objective" moral system is "perfect" when it is no such thing. As a rigid application of it would make nonsense of the "grey" areas just as much as..... if not much more so.... than any other.
The difference in our moral systems comes down to one simple thing. OURS does not require us to make up unsubstantiated nonsense in order to ground it. YOURS does. And How.
Lastly because I don't want to interfere but had some curiosity, from first sentence yes this is true and it is understood by and large by believers the creator is not human and would not in any way be subject to things to do with morality, and exists complete within its creator self however spirit that would be. Plus there would be a difference between an impression which is all individually important rather then a full collective understanding for all humanity if, good wins out in the end which is the belief. So drama with the pictures of starving children and so on and the zillions of other injustices both individually and whatever is all part of man's doing and we need to earn good in the end ( purpose). Natural disasters I think may be another topic. Life is not anywhere close to reasonable or perfect for most I'd never argue that.
You are saying that god has a different morality from humans. Which means you undestand that by the morality recognized by humans, your god is acting in an immoral manner.
You are admitting you think god acts in evil, immoral ways. Yet for some reason you excuse this, and worship this evil creature?
You are saying that god has a different morality from humans. Which means you undestand that by the morality recognized by humans, your god is acting in an immoral manner.
You are admitting you think god acts in evil, immoral ways. Yet for some reason you excuse this, and worship this evil creature?
This would seem to sum it up in a nutshell, FB. I find it completely inexplicable and mind boggling.
You are saying that god has a different morality from humans. Which means you undestand that by the morality recognized by humans, your god is acting in an immoral manner.
You are admitting you think god acts in evil, immoral ways. Yet for some reason you excuse this, and worship this evil creature?
Well the accused deserves to know what the charge would be, what is the god being accused of ?
Last edited by Sophronius; 09-01-2014 at 08:14 PM..
Well the accused deserves to know what the charge would be, what is the god being accused of ?
Torture, genocide, and terrorism should cover it. A few million or billion counts of each.
We could add other things such as conspiracy, destruction of property, brainwashing, and entrapment if you like, but the first three things I mentioned are fine.
Torture, genocide, and terrorism should cover it. A few million or billion counts of each.
We could add other things such as conspiracy, destruction of property, brainwashing, and entrapment if you like, but the first three things I mentioned are fine.
So I would assume above is a complaint with things all about and to do with mortality issues.
Last edited by Sophronius; 09-01-2014 at 08:28 PM..
So I would assume above is a complaint with things all about and to do with mortality issues.
Some do, some don't. You could apply torture to people damned to torment in hell.
Doesn't really matter though. If your 'out' is to claim that murder/torture/etc don't matter to god because they only apply to a brief lifetime, that doesn't really help you. I see several problems from a typical Christian point of view.
1. You are still applying different moral constructs to god and humans. God is still immoral.
2. If it doesn't matter because of the brevity of mortal, human life, then the sacrifice of the crucifixion wasn't really much of a sacrifice. It was more of a divine stubbed toe.
3. Relying on the brevity of mortal life as an excuse to differentiate divine and human morality undercuts a common christian apologetic. I have heard many times that since god is perfect, even a slight offense (sin) is justification for eternal damnation. Yet you seem to justify gods evil by saying it doesn't matter because it is minor in the grand scheme of things. So magnitude is not important for human beings, but is an excuse for god?
Chose your poison, or offer another option. None of my options is going to solve your dual morality dilemma, but I look forward to seeing you try.
Some do, some don't. You could apply torture to people damned to torment in hell.
Doesn't really matter though. If your 'out' is to claim that murder/torture/etc don't matter to god because they only apply to a brief lifetime, that doesn't really help you. I see several problems from a typical Christian point of view.
1. You are still applying different moral constructs to god and humans. God is still immoral.
2. If it doesn't matter because of the brevity of mortal, human life, then the sacrifice of the crucifixion wasn't really much of a sacrifice. It was more of a divine stubbed toe.
3. Relying on the brevity of mortal life as an excuse to differentiate divine and human morality undercuts a common christian apologetic. I have heard many times that since god is perfect, even a slight offense (sin) is justification for eternal damnation. Yet you seem to justify gods evil by saying it doesn't matter because it is minor in the grand scheme of things. So magnitude is not important for human beings, but is an excuse for god?
Chose your poison, or offer another option. None of my options is going to solve your dual morality dilemma, but I look forward to seeing you try.
Morality is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions, it has to do with human behavior and character . So above would be a disordered use of language as worded, maybe it could be rephrased.
edit, plus number three I have no clue where the idea came from and do not understand what is being said at all.
Last edited by Sophronius; 09-02-2014 at 12:13 AM..
Morality is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions, it has to do with human behavior and character . So above would be a disordered use of language as worded, maybe it could be rephrased.
Morality has to do with behavior ... period. It doesn't matter to whom or what you apply it to. If a highly advanced but capricious alien race came to our world and began snatching people off the street to torture them, we would still call that behavior immoral. We would not excuse the aliens for their atrocity simply because they aren't human.
In that same way, atheists do not excuse God for his atrocities just because he's God (and not human). This isn't because we believe God exists, of course, or that any of those atrocities actually happened. It's because of how it affects the morality of certain Christians today - and how it could potentially justify atrocity committed by humanity someday in the future.
It is why I keep bringing up ISIS. It is to remind everyone that ISIS is doing exactly the same thing the ancient Israelities supposedly did ... and yet Christians cheerlead for the Israelites while condemning ISIS. It just goes to show you that it isn't the atrocities of ISIS that are being condemned, but rather, it is the fact that the atrocities are being committed in the name of the wrong God. Would it not be true that if a Moses-like personality came down from the mountain today and told Christians to mercilessly slaughter all non-Christians in America that many would obey? All it would take is for this modern day Moses to explain that God wants it done because America is the Christian's Land of Milk and Honey.
I often bring up the story of Abraham and Isaac when God demands that Isaac be sacrificed. Not once did Abraham ask God why, not once did Abraham plead with God not to have to do it, not once did Abraham challenge the morality of such a thing. No, Abraham simply lured his son to the sacrificial place, lied to Isaac to get him there, and then happily tied up Isaac and threw him on the alter. There was no hesitation, no weeping, no pleading, no begging, no "take my life instead, oh Lord," or anything at all like that.
Which shows to my mind, at least, the horrible things blind obedience can cause a person to do. Anyone who can excuse and justify the complete depravity of God's actions in the Old Testament - not to mention the depraved actions of the Israelites - can easily justify acts of depravity right here in our day, in our time, against our own people.
And that is what is so important. I might joke around a bit with my dialog between God and Joshua, but this is one of those religious issues I take deadly seriously. Because I've seen it ... first hand with my own eyes. I've lost people in my life to religious extremism, and anyone who thinks it could never happen in America needs to remember that no one thought it could happen in Tehran or Baghdad or Beirut or Damascus a century ago.
Morality has to do with behavior ... period. It doesn't matter to whom or what you apply it to. If a highly advanced but capricious alien race came to our world and began snatching people off the street to torture them, we would still call that behavior immoral. We would not excuse the aliens for their atrocity simply because they aren't human.
In that same way, atheists do not excuse God for his atrocities just because he's God (and not human). This isn't because we believe God exists, of course, or that any of those atrocities actually happened. It's because of how it affects the morality of certain Christians today - and how it could potentially justify atrocity committed by humanity someday in the future.
It is why I keep bringing up ISIS. It is to remind everyone that ISIS is doing exactly the same thing the ancient Israelities supposedly did ... and yet Christians cheerlead for the Israelites while condemning ISIS. It just goes to show you that it isn't the atrocities of ISIS that are being condemned, but rather, it is the fact that the atrocities are being committed in the name of the wrong God. Would it not be true that if a Moses-like personality came down from the mountain today and told Christians to mercilessly slaughter all non-Christians in America that many would obey? All it would take is for this modern day Moses to explain that God wants it done because America is the Christian's Land of Milk and Honey.
I often bring up the story of Abraham and Isaac when God demands that Isaac be sacrificed. Not once did Abraham ask God why, not once did Abraham plead with God not to have to do it, not once did Abraham challenge the morality of such a thing. No, Abraham simply lured his son to the sacrificial place, lied to Isaac to get him there, and then happily tied up Isaac and threw him on the alter. There was no hesitation, no weeping, no pleading, no begging, no "take my life instead, oh Lord," or anything at all like that.
Which shows to my mind, at least, the horrible things blind obedience can cause a person to do. Anyone who can excuse and justify the complete depravity of God's actions in the Old Testament - not to mention the depraved actions of the Israelites - can easily justify acts of depravity right here in our day, in our time, against our own people.
And that is what is so important. I might joke around a bit with my dialog between God and Joshua, but this is one of those religious issues I take deadly seriously. Because I've seen it ... first hand with my own eyes. I've lost people in my life to religious extremism, and anyone who thinks it could never happen in America needs to remember that no one thought it could happen in Tehran or Baghdad or Beirut or Damascus a century ago.
I donno if it would be a concern today, Christians becoming terrorist-extremists .
Last edited by Sophronius; 09-02-2014 at 01:21 AM..
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