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I figured I should come on here and apologize for the negativity I brought into the online lives of some of you over the past few years. I have engaged in many a debate on the Religion forum and said some things which I no longer believe, as they are not compatible with the evidence and the truth.
I have determined that God, whether he still exists or not, is naught more than the creator of the universe. I still say that the science and math prove that the universe had to be created, but they say nothing beyond that. Certainly I have not been presented with any evidence of that Creator being any particular religion's deity, nor having any specific nature. Thus, as of the beginning of 2015, I am a deist.
I hereby apologize to anyone I offended while I was still a Christian. I recall having some spirited repartee with people over topics such as homosexuality, and irritating several people by stating my belief that such a lifestyle was a choice. I know now that it is not - it is the result of the person's tastes, which cannot be controlled nor chosen any more than anyone else's tastes can be chosen or controlled. Some people like people of the same gender. I happen to like unusually large women. Whatever. To each his own.
I have decided that starting now, I'm going to operate based upon the golden rule and the principles of common logic. Thus if I post here again, that is something upon which you can count. Here's to a happier, more loving, more intellectually free 2015 and beyond.
It takes courage to admit that you were wrong. You did it in a graceful way.
This was the culmination of almost 3 years of investigation and research. And then it came to a head this past year when I received my first irrefutable proof that the Bible contains fallacies. Since then I discovered many more inconsistencies and fallacies. If SOME of the Bible (especially the New Testament) is false, then ALL of it is questionable and NONE of it can be upheld as anything more than "story". It contains some good points but nothing that can logically be upheld as fact. In light of everything I learned from people and from my own study, I gave God until midnight on New Year's Eve to speak to me and set everything straight. Had I gotten that, I would have been willing to adhere to Christianity even in the face of the illogic.
But I didn't get it. So I am no longer going to believe it. My eyes and ears are open and they will be for as long as I have breath in my body. Thus, if God is more than the Creator of the universe and He wants to appear to me visibly or audibly, I will be able to perceive it and I will accept it. I will return to Christianity the day I get a theophany. Until then, or until I die, I am a deist.
It's funny - I have mixed feelings. Part of me is elated to be intellectually free and no longer encumbered by the negativity of constantly investigating this and being frustrated by what I hear in church and from other Christians... I actually have more hope for 2015 than I've had for most years in the past... but then there's the part of me that feels as though I am trudging into unknown territory. Abandoning a belief system I've held for over three decades is not something that can be done like flipping a switch. I'm sure there will always be an imprint of Christianity on me. However, I can't deny what I have seen and heard (or not seen and not heard)... and I can't go against logic anymore.
I have come to realize that religion tends to be at the heart of a lot of the awful things going on in the world and in people's lives. All of this Islamic State stuff - religion. All of the "terror" stuff that America has dealt with for decades now - religion. The UK is still divided, in principle at least, due to religion. People get disowned from their families due to religion. I could go on and on. I understand the draw of religion but I can no longer justify being against what certain people do with their lives, on religious grounds. It's going to be a new experience for me, accepting what I stood against for decades... but I think I will be happier for it once I get used to it.
So I have been starting this journey by apologizing to everyone whose toes I stomped on in my Christian years, and cleaning up whatever messes I made. That does feel good... and liberating. Only time will tell where this journey takes me. That's the beauty of it... it's essentially routeless... just like my life has been for a long time. It's a good match. Whatever happens, happens. I'm not going to worry about burning in hell, because hell is illogical.
And to all of the Christians reading this - I intend no offense to you either. As I said, I will return to Christianity when I get a theophany which is entirely comprehensible to me and indubitably sourced from the Christian God. If the Bible is taken to be true, all of the people in the Bible whose stories are taught to be the pattern of the Christian's life received theophanies. (Noah, Abraham, Job, Daniel, Samuel, Joshua, Gideon, Peter, Paul, all the rest of the 12 disciples, Mary, Joseph, Mary Magdalene, et al.) If you want me back on your team, pray for me to receive a theophany immediately. In theory, according to Matthew 7:7 and the other nine passages in the Bible which state very clearly that you WILL get what you ask for in prayer (and do not append that statement with anything like "if it's in God's will" or "if you pray the right way" or "if you have the right motives"), I should receive a theophany immediately. (But I warn you - I prayed for that for years and it never happened.)
This was the culmination of almost 3 years of investigation and research. And then it came to a head this past year when I received my first irrefutable proof that the Bible contains fallacies. Since then I discovered many more inconsistencies and fallacies. If SOME of the Bible (especially the New Testament) is false, then ALL of it is questionable and NONE of it can be upheld as anything more than "story". It contains some good points but nothing that can logically be upheld as fact.
<snip>
It's funny - I have mixed feelings. Part of me is elated to be intellectually free and no longer encumbered by the negativity of constantly investigating this and being frustrated by what I hear in church and from other Christians... I actually have more hope for 2015 than I've had for most years in the past... but then there's the part of me that feels as though I am trudging into unknown territory. Abandoning a belief system I've held for over three decades is not something that can be done like flipping a switch. I'm sure there will always be an imprint of Christianity on me. However, I can't deny what I have seen and heard (or not seen and not heard)... and I can't go against logic anymore.
I can completely relate to your post, particular the parts I quoted above. I could have written those very words myself. I do wish you happiness and peace as you continue on your journey for truth.
I figured I should come on here and apologize for the negativity I brought into the online lives of some of you over the past few years. I have engaged in many a debate on the Religion forum and said some things which I no longer believe, as they are not compatible with the evidence and the truth.
I have determined that God, whether he still exists or not, is naught more than the creator of the universe. I still say that the science and math prove that the universe had to be created, but they say nothing beyond that. Certainly I have not been presented with any evidence of that Creator being any particular religion's deity, nor having any specific nature. Thus, as of the beginning of 2015, I am a deist.
I hereby apologize to anyone I offended while I was still a Christian. I recall having some spirited repartee with people over topics such as homosexuality, and irritating several people by stating my belief that such a lifestyle was a choice. I know now that it is not - it is the result of the person's tastes, which cannot be controlled nor chosen any more than anyone else's tastes can be chosen or controlled. Some people like people of the same gender. I happen to like unusually large women. Whatever. To each his own.
I have decided that starting now, I'm going to operate based upon the golden rule and the principles of common logic. Thus if I post here again, that is something upon which you can count. Here's to a happier, more loving, more intellectually free 2015 and beyond.
For myself, I have never found anything to get upset about in your posts. You said what you thought and argued it as best you can. However, your apology is considered by me at least a mark of a decent and honest human, even if (for me) it wasn't needed.
I might note further that you seem to have moved from a religion -specific deity to more irreligious - type creator, if not deist (having created, takes no more part in the managing of His Creation).
After further discussion, you might come to see that even postulating a creator of Life, the Univere and everything is not a scientifically valid belief, but it does have a pretty hefty gap for a god.
Everyone gets escalated when it comes to religion; no apology is needed, in my eyes. Knowing that we need to 'gear down' shows a common sense that many people lack or ignore.
Have an excellent 2015, and I look forward to typing at you again
This was the culmination of almost 3 years of investigation and research. And then it came to a head this past year when I received my first irrefutable proof that the Bible contains fallacies. Since then I discovered many more inconsistencies and fallacies. If SOME of the Bible (especially the New Testament) is false, then ALL of it is questionable and NONE of it can be upheld as anything more than "story". It contains some good points but nothing that can logically be upheld as fact. In light of everything I learned from people and from my own study, I gave God until midnight on New Year's Eve to speak to me and set everything straight. Had I gotten that, I would have been willing to adhere to Christianity even in the face of the illogic.
But I didn't get it. So I am no longer going to believe it. My eyes and ears are open and they will be for as long as I have breath in my body. Thus, if God is more than the Creator of the universe and He wants to appear to me visibly or audibly, I will be able to perceive it and I will accept it. I will return to Christianity the day I get a theophany. Until then, or until I die, I am a deist.
It's funny - I have mixed feelings. Part of me is elated to be intellectually free and no longer encumbered by the negativity of constantly investigating this and being frustrated by what I hear in church and from other Christians... I actually have more hope for 2015 than I've had for most years in the past... but then there's the part of me that feels as though I am trudging into unknown territory. Abandoning a belief system I've held for over three decades is not something that can be done like flipping a switch. I'm sure there will always be an imprint of Christianity on me. However, I can't deny what I have seen and heard (or not seen and not heard)... and I can't go against logic anymore.
I have come to realize that religion tends to be at the heart of a lot of the awful things going on in the world and in people's lives. All of this Islamic State stuff - religion. All of the "terror" stuff that America has dealt with for decades now - religion. The UK is still divided, in principle at least, due to religion. People get disowned from their families due to religion. I could go on and on. I understand the draw of religion but I can no longer justify being against what certain people do with their lives, on religious grounds. It's going to be a new experience for me, accepting what I stood against for decades... but I think I will be happier for it once I get used to it.
So I have been starting this journey by apologizing to everyone whose toes I stomped on in my Christian years, and cleaning up whatever messes I made. That does feel good... and liberating. Only time will tell where this journey takes me. That's the beauty of it... it's essentially routeless... just like my life has been for a long time. It's a good match. Whatever happens, happens. I'm not going to worry about burning in hell, because hell is illogical.
And to all of the Christians reading this - I intend no offense to you either. As I said, I will return to Christianity when I get a theophany which is entirely comprehensible to me and indubitably sourced from the Christian God. If the Bible is taken to be true, all of the people in the Bible whose stories are taught to be the pattern of the Christian's life received theophanies. (Noah, Abraham, Job, Daniel, Samuel, Joshua, Gideon, Peter, Paul, all the rest of the 12 disciples, Mary, Joseph, Mary Magdalene, et al.) If you want me back on your team, pray for me to receive a theophany immediately. In theory, according to Matthew 7:7 and the other nine passages in the Bible which state very clearly that you WILL get what you ask for in prayer (and do not append that statement with anything like "if it's in God's will" or "if you pray the right way" or "if you have the right motives"), I should receive a theophany immediately. (But I warn you - I prayed for that for years and it never happened.)
Look, I'm a Catholic and we take the Old Testament in a purely figurative fashion. The Gospel we hold to be sacred and true but, but, but with the understanding that it is coming from the perspective of four different men (Mathew, Mark, John, Luke). We don't pay much attention to Paul, where all the anti-homosexuality stuff comes in, and we tend to love the epistles of James and Peter. The book of Revelations, from our perspective, was not written by John of the Gospel but another John and is really only relevant as it captures the Church in crisis from NERO (666 = Ceaser Nero).
Look, I'm not trying to convert you to Catholic--it's a pretty boring religion if you do not like reading. The Episcopalians and Methodists pretty much feel the same as we do with obvious differences. So, there are plenty of religions out there which may now align more to your enlightened state. Helk, I also study Mahayana Buddhism (stay away from Zen in my opinion). The Qur'an is a very beautiful work of spirituality and religion especially the meditative passages at the end which I love the most. So, you have options.
Here is what I am going to do. I'm going to try to show you a miracle right now. Often times I can do this but sometimes I can't and I've never done this online. I'm going to say an intercessory prayer that you may receive some miracle, a minor miracle, so that you know God is out there and cares about you and the world. Then what I am going to do is open the Bible and write down the lines that I randomly point to and this will directly address the underlying issue you have right now; it will be about something I don't know about and has not been discussed in this post. Here goes!!! I hope this works:
PSALM 28 line 23
God understands the way to it,
and he knows its place
For he look to the ends of the Earth
and sees everything under the Heavens
When he gave to the wind its weight
and apportioned out the waters by measuer
when he made a decree for the rain
and a way for the thunderbolt
then he saw it and declared it
he established it and searched it out
And he said to humankind
Truly, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom
and to depart from Evil is Understanding
Now, you can choose to believe that I just had that laying around or the truth that I did just randomly open the Bible but that is up to you. I do, do this for people a lot in life. Like I do in life whenever I catch an old Testament writing I always follow it up with, "now, what does the Christ think about this." So, I'll do that now:
The Gospel of Luke Verse 24 Line 6
Remember how he told you,
while he was still in Galilee,
that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinners
and be crucified and on the third day rise again
Then they remembered his words,
and returning from the tomb,
the told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.
OK, well I picked that randomly also it all relates to this. Now, I'm going to up the ante and do another intercessory prayer [I've actually been lucky enough to see tons of miracles in life so it is my duty to guide people who have not been so privileged to Faith] and I'm going to go out on a ledge and pick a passage that you may love, something random again to show you an even stronger miracle. I hope this works. Here goes:
I found PSALM 150 exactly. Don't don't know if this has special meaning to you but there you got a bunch of miracles...now find a reasonable Church that is both enlightened and spiritual. It does not have to be Catholic even thought I am Catholic. You may like the Lutherans, Episcopalians or Methodists; they are all pretty rational (the Lutherans are a little too literal but not the Episcopalians or Methodists). Or it can be something other than Christian but I always recommend Christian the most but again it is not the only Spiritual Path; Buddhists, Hindues, Siks, Muslims and others also have a place in the Kingdom of Heaven and I'm sure there are many, many there right now.
Oh, also if I was able to assist you in finding the miracles you need think of it this way. If God would have granted your prayer and shown you the miracle you searched for what would be your reaction? My guess is you would become even more steadfast in your intolerant views and your narrow view of the Bible. With humility, while God may understand and love us all I am certain he does not approve of intolerance, narrowness, and a hardness of heart. How would a miracle benefit you if it would only reinforce behavior and ideas that get you further from him?
Now, that you are more open, more accepting of others and chiseling away at your intolerance, narrowness, and hardness of heart what will more than likely happen is that God will work more through you and possibly bring people in your life--like me--who God can work through until you are ready to see your own miracles. Again, as a Catholic, but also a lot of mainline protestants feel this way, I believe God works through us. Hence, the mystery of the Holy Trinity. So, let God work through you.
Man, that was sweet advice from Artifice. Thumbs up. I remember hearing Rick Joyner speak about how he asked to hear God's audible voice. It was an earnest request and I think one he travailed over. It eventually happened, and God said 3 words: "Call me Abba"
What was of equal significance, in my opinion, to what God said, was what Rick said he felt like after God spoke to Him. One word:
This was the culmination of almost 3 years of investigation and research. And then it came to a head this past year when I received my first irrefutable proof that the Bible contains fallacies. Since then I discovered many more inconsistencies and fallacies. If SOME of the Bible (especially the New Testament) is false, then ALL of it is questionable and NONE of it can be upheld as anything more than "story". It contains some good points but nothing that can logically be upheld as fact. In light of everything I learned from people and from my own study, I gave God until midnight on New Year's Eve to speak to me and set everything straight. Had I gotten that, I would have been willing to adhere to Christianity even in the face of the illogic.
But I didn't get it. So I am no longer going to believe it. My eyes and ears are open and they will be for as long as I have breath in my body. Thus, if God is more than the Creator of the universe and He wants to appear to me visibly or audibly, I will be able to perceive it and I will accept it. I will return to Christianity the day I get a theophany. Until then, or until I die, I am a deist.
It's funny - I have mixed feelings. Part of me is elated to be intellectually free and no longer encumbered by the negativity of constantly investigating this and being frustrated by what I hear in church and from other Christians... I actually have more hope for 2015 than I've had for most years in the past... but then there's the part of me that feels as though I am trudging into unknown territory. Abandoning a belief system I've held for over three decades is not something that can be done like flipping a switch. I'm sure there will always be an imprint of Christianity on me. However, I can't deny what I have seen and heard (or not seen and not heard)... and I can't go against logic anymore.
Fantastic post. Classic deconversion. I doubt whether anything we said made any impact, but YOU couldn't deny the fallacies and contradictions and thus, when Bible authority collapsed, the whole belief - system fell apart. Of course you still believe that a god did everything in the beginning and maybe you'll stay there. I know of one of us atheist posters who went from atheist to Theist on the Cosmic origins argument. I may differ, but I don't oppose.
What a telling point about imposing a deadline! Christians will be appalled as the 'arrogance' but there comes a stage where you have to call on the bullcrap, even from God.
Quote:
I have come to realize that religion tends to be at the heart of a lot of the awful things going on in the world and in people's lives. All of this Islamic State stuff - religion. All of the "terror" stuff that America has dealt with for decades now - religion. The UK is still divided, in principle at least, due to religion. People get disowned from their families due to religion. I could go on and on. I understand the draw of religion but I can no longer justify being against what certain people do with their lives, on religious grounds. It's going to be a new experience for me, accepting what I stood against for decades... but I think I will be happier for it once I get used to it.
So I have been starting this journey by apologizing to everyone whose toes I stomped on in my Christian years, and cleaning up whatever messes I made. That does feel good... and liberating. Only time will tell where this journey takes me. That's the beauty of it... it's essentially routeless... just like my life has been for a long time. It's a good match. Whatever happens, happens. I'm not going to worry about burning in hell, because hell is illogical.
While apology probably wasn't needed, yes, cleaning up the mess. Starting afresh and it is liberating. You'll be amazed at how much better it is to let the mind work rather than keeping a brake on it or shut in a small box for fear it would escape. While you (like many deconverts) may regret the warm fuzzies and the sense of security, I suppose, you'll find it elating out on the rockface in the sun.
Quote:
And to all of the Christians reading this - I intend no offense to you either. As I said, I will return to Christianity when I get a theophany which is entirely comprehensible to me and indubitably sourced from the Christian God. If the Bible is taken to be true, all of the people in the Bible whose stories are taught to be the pattern of the Christian's life received theophanies. (Noah, Abraham, Job, Daniel, Samuel, Joshua, Gideon, Peter, Paul, all the rest of the 12 disciples, Mary, Joseph, Mary Magdalene, et al.) If you want me back on your team, pray for me to receive a theophany immediately. In theory, according to Matthew 7:7 and the other nine passages in the Bible which state very clearly that you WILL get what you ask for in prayer (and do not append that statement with anything like "if it's in God's will" or "if you pray the right way" or "if you have the right motives"), I should receive a theophany immediately. (But I warn you - I prayed for that for years and it never happened.)
And there's no way I can put it better than that.
Though I can remark that the Christian reaction 'Pray to brainwash yourself back into faith' was to be expected.
It could happen. People have had a mystical experience that convinced them God was real, though of course you still believe in that. It's the One True Religion thing you don't buy anymore. Yoy may well get some arguments for the reliability of the Bible, the usual excuses, the usual circular arguments, the usual appeal to have faith in its accuracy at bottom, no matter how much it might read like crap.
But I don't think that can wash with you. Once you seen through the trick, it will never work on you again.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-07-2015 at 06:42 AM..
Reason: the usual tidy -up
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