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famous or well known, typically for some bad quality or deed.
Look ... this is Jeff trying to be positive. Rome wasn't built in a day. I give him props for at least trying a different approach. To him, Penn IS notorious.
Jeff arguably should choose less pejorative adjectives, but Penn should humanize himself a bit more like this too. Hey ... Penn got Jeff to look and actually consider that Penn is something besides the Hated Big Other. That's a Good Thing.
Look ... this is Jeff trying to be positive. Rome wasn't built in a day. I give him props for at least trying a different approach. To him, Penn IS notorious.
Jeff arguably should choose less pejorative adjectives, but Penn should humanize himself a bit more like this too. Hey ... Penn got Jeff to look and actually consider that Penn is something besides the Hated Big Other. That's a Good Thing.
I agree. Jeff was open to suggestion. I am appreciative.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Jeff, I appreciate a well thought out post from you. Too often the opposite appears to be the case.
More of these, less of the others would make for great dialogue. Although I don't necessary agree with all of your conclusions, I still appreciate the fact that this is a great post.
Unfortunately, your post is a total waste since you offer no specifics as to how I'm jabbing at atheists here. You refuse to even watch the video so how can you post a far assessment of my points? I honestly have no clue what I said that riled you up so much to feel the need to rip into me here. The only point I made to atheists is to understand why a Christian may push his faith on you. Penn gets it.
But at least you admit to mockery. Sorry, but your suggestion that I need help just comes off as condescending and a personal attack. If you truly had concern for my mental state, you would not have posted rhetoric that is antagonistic in nature.
(underlined) I didn't. I posted my assessment of your presentation and what I perceive to be your motives based on how you stated things and the amount of jabs you got in. As for what the jabs themselves meant, each could be a thread all by itself and if you're hoping for derailment, sorry, not going to give that to you.
You can think I am condescending, you can think I'm personally attacking you, or you can dig deeper and wonder why you're deciding to feel that way and whether it might be because the alternative is scary. Or you could not think about it ever again. I made a suggestion, I'm not twisting your arm or driving over to your house with a psych referral letter from your doctor.
I hope you wind up happier some day than you seem to be now, and that's all I can say. I truly hope for that.
ETA: But here's something to consider...apparently, Penn was struck by a kindness. Just an act of kindness, no snide side-remarks, just a person handing him a Bible because that person would have been kind. There is a BIG difference between a quiet kindness like that, and...well, you figure it out. I am serious about that point. I know you can see the difference but are deciding not to, but some day...maybe you'll be ready.
Unfortunately, your post is a total waste since you offer no specifics as to how I'm jabbing at atheists here.
Not everyone is going to trust you even a little at first -- you have a long history of negativity that isn't wiped out by one post.
I have treated your post as genuine effort to try a positive approach. Time will tell if it is I or JerZ who called it right. In all honesty I am usually on the losing end of such bets. Just can't help myself. As cynical as I can be I am an idealist and an optimist at heart.
I asked earlier if you have any beliefs as to why Christians are so threatened by mere disagreement. It was an honest question. I can truthfully say that I don't believe any deities exist, including yours, and that I am unaware of any good reason to think otherwise. That is simply a statement of my belief position, no different than you saying you believe your deity exists and have good reason to think so. It is not disrespecful for either of us to make a belief statement, is it? Yet ... frequently just making that statement I get a shocked reaction, a sort of "how dare you" subtext.
I think the reason is that my belief is blasphemy in terms of your dogma. I submit that "blasphemy" is a theological cover for a simple taboo. Taboos generally exist to cut off perceived threats to the existence of the established order of things. NOT questioning the existence of god is so foundational to theism (let alone Christianity) that it must NEVER be done or even thought of. Which means that questioning the existence of god IS a perceived assault at the very foundation of any theistic belief -- not just belief in god but belief in faith as a method to discover truth or reality of any kind. It opens up a WHOLE can of worms that theism doesn't want opened up, or even on the table in any way, shape or form.
But can we not just back off from all that and agree that since by your lights, your belief-system is a sound one that it has nothing to fear from being questioned? Blasphemy is just a theological version of "don't insult the king or even his pet dog, or off with your head". It's an anachronism. If your belief-system is impervious to unbelief, then let an unbeliever describe and discuss his reasons just like you want to define and discuss yours -- without it devolving into a food fight because it's seen as some kind of attack or assault.
Similarly -- another anachronism, I submit, is also analogous to old-world kingly rule -- the king's rule is the final word and never to be questioned or debated. In religious terms, religious ideas are always to be respected and deferred to, no matter what you actually think about them. If you have concerns or disagreements, keep them to yourself and evince fake respect. Anything less than that is an assault, to be responded to with maximum harshness. This is the notion that your belief-system, alone among all of them, must never be questioned or doubted openly, and therefore you never have uncomfortable questions to answer and you certainly don't have to compete in the marketplace of ideas. Why, the very IDEA of a marketplace is insulting. Your ideas are BEYOND all that.
Can you not let go of that? MY ideas and beliefs have to be justified and defended and I have to tolerate not just a few people but a minority, disagreeing with me and having other ideas. If my ideas don't work for them or don't appeal to the, they get to reject them. Is it such an awful thing that you should have to do the same? So some people don't agree with your rules about, e.g., sexuality ... you still get to follow them so what is the problem if some choose not to and leave you in peace to have heterosexual sex within marriage, confined if you want to the missionary position? Why is the mere EXISTENCE of someone with different beliefs and practices who leaves you alone to believe and practice what you want, in any way a problem? If you DON'T have an agenda to force your beliefs on others, why would it matter?
Look ... this is Jeff trying to be positive. Rome wasn't built in a day. I give him props for at least trying a different approach. To him, Penn IS notorious.
Jeff arguably should choose less pejorative adjectives, but Penn should humanize himself a bit more like this too. Hey ... Penn got Jeff to look and actually consider that Penn is something besides the Hated Big Other. That's a Good Thing.
You're right. Maybe I should be looking at it this way. This is a good point.
I just...I don't know. It's hard because I feel darkness, fear and anger and not the tongue-in-cheek kind...maybe just my perception but it definitely colors what SHOULD have been something very positive. All of us, atheist, agnostic, religious (whatever the religion might be), everyone should have been able to simply watch that vid and felt happy. It was tainted and I reacted to that, but with sympathy...even if it didn't come off that way.
I really do hope for the best here. Am not counting on it but it never hurts to hope.
Atheists are only watching because they want to see Christians screw up and then enjoy bringing out the hypocrite charge.
Thank you for that insightful post, Jeff. It's a far cry from what I've come to expect when reading your messages.
That said, I have to disagree with what you said above: atheists are watching, yes, but they're not waiting purely to trot out the hypocrisy card (though sometimes -- and I say this with the greatest respect -- you make it an incredibly easy card to draw).
Atheists are watching you, Jeff.
They're watching your conduct; they're watching how you approach them; they're watching how you engage in dialogue with others, and they're watching how you behave when you must 'agree to disagree'.
Take Kim Davis, for example: obviously, a very devout Christian. Yet, her conduct says only one thing: 'It's all about Kim Davis'. She shows none of the Christian charity, none of the love, none of the real essence of Christianity. Instead, she uses her religion to take what should be the happiest moment in anybody's life -- and make it all about her.
That's what we're watching, Jeff. We want to see you back up that claim that religion makes you a 'better person'.
Kim Davis has proven that it can make someone selfish, nasty and bitter. Can you, Jeff, prove that the opposite is also true?
Most if not all of us gave acknowledgement of your positive post. JerZ posted what parts of your post were still very confrontational on your part by underlining your words not those from the video. My suggestion would be for you to go back to her post and read what she underlined of yours because like it or not she is correct, there was a demeaning tone to your word useage. On the plus side you do bring to our attention a positive interaction between two people with very differing opinions about faith. Guess what Jeff, this is the type of interaction that most of us non believers encounter on a daily basis.
Please do not get offended by JerZ comments, somewhat similar ones have been made in the past by myself, Sharina and others that you find something to attack us with. These posts are not meant as attacks on you but to point out that, based on the words on your posts, that you appear to think we are at war with you or that you need to battle with you. I think I can speak for most on this forum we would rather discuss with you than attack you nor do we wish to be attacked by you but to read your view on issues.
None of us here are your enemies. You do come accross as a bitter, angry person who thinks we what to put an end to your religion. If you do not want to believe us, that is your right but please find more items like the Penn video to watch or read.
Every single poster on this thread, bar none are happy to see you create this thread.
Thank you, badlander. And mordant. You are both so even-keeled and it's helpful.
I need to be 100% honest here. I probably did come off badly...but it was based on disappointment. I was pretty excited to see the title of the post and see it was from Jeff. I TRULY DID think it was going to be just positive. Then I opened it up and it was all peppered with the negative, nasty stuff and my heart fell. Just so disappointed.
I want to be optimistic but really. I mean...just...what a disappointment.
By the way, I did watch the video after my initial hesitation. Penn was not swayed to Christianity or even away from atheism and in fact pointed out at the end that what he liked so much was the kindness and the communication *despite the disagreement* in philosophies (paraphrasing). So he still disagrees with the philosophy. The point of the vid seemed to be simply that Penn was happy that two people who could disagree so strongly on a certain point could still be civil and kind.
It was the kindness that seemed to strike Penn most. Not Christianity itself. He didn't have an epiphany in a religious way but rather, in a humanitarian one.
Perhaps that's the take-home, Jeff. It certainly was for the creator of the video. And I have to repeat myself here: you can learn from that. If you want to.
Thank you, badlander. And mordant. You are both so even-keeled and it's helpful.
I need to be 100% honest here. I probably did come off badly...but it was based on disappointment. I was pretty excited to see the title of the post and see it was from Jeff. I TRULY DID think it was going to be just positive. Then I opened it up and it was all peppered with the negative, nasty stuff and my heart fell. Just so disappointed.
I want to be optimistic but really. I mean...just...what a disappointment.
By the way, I did watch the video after my initial hesitation. Penn was not swayed to Christianity or even away from atheism and in fact pointed out at the end that what he liked so much was the kindness and the communication *despite the disagreement* in philosophies (paraphrasing). So he still disagrees with the philosophy. The point of the vid seemed to be simply that Penn was happy that two people who could disagree so strongly on a certain point could still be civil and kind.
It was the kindness that seemed to strike Penn most. Not Christianity himself. He didn't have an epiphany in a religious way but rather, in a humanitarian one.
Perhaps that's the take-home, Jeff. It certainly was for the creator of the video. And I have to repeat myself here: you can learn from that. If you want to.
Your heart is in the right place. Jeff might still be not ready for the advice others give him. I have had my share of run ins with him hence I have no expectations only hope. And Jeff by hope I do not meant that I hope that you stop being religious as it matters not to me if you believe in God or not, I have no intensions of trying to get you to stop believing.
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