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But those children going to private school are being educated, just not in public schools who we all know waste a lot of money and keep asking for more and more.
And private school vouchers used by religious affiliated schools mean tax money is used to support horriblescooling like creationism. Religious affiliated schools can deny who is allowed to attend. They require religious litmus tests upon teachers. Teachers can be fired for being gay or divorced. No matter how one views it, the general public should not be forced to pay for that type of school. When public votes are allowed, school vouchers are almost always rejected. Far be it from right wing politicians to allow a public vote, it has simply been instituted by religious controlled Republican state legislatures.
School vouchers are little more than a backdoor way for the government to subsidize religious and other private schools. Under most voucher bills, private schools can take taxpayer money and still deny admission to any student they choose. Unlike public schools, private schools can and do discriminate against students based on various criteria, including religion, disability, economic background, academic record, English language ability or disciplinary history. Public funds should pay only for public schools that are open to all children and accountable to the people.
Private schools are also free to impose religious criteria on teachers and staff. Teachers at religious schools have been fired for having the “wrong” views about religion, for marrying someone of another faith, for getting divorced, for being gay and even for taking public stands that conflict with the church’s view. This may be legal, but it shouldn’t be subsidized by taxpayers.
According to multiple studies of the District of Columbia, Milwaukee and Cleveland school voucher programs, the targeted population does not perform better in reading and math than students in public schools. The U.S. Department of Education studies of the D.C. program show that the students using vouchers to attend private schools do not believe that their voucher school is better or safer than the public school they left.
The study also showed that over a period of four years, there was no statistically significant difference between students who were offered a voucher and those who were not in their aspirations for future schooling, engagement in extracurricular activities, frequency of doing homework, attendance at school, reading for enjoyment or tardiness rates. In fact, students who participated in the program may actually have been more likely to be absent from school. Likewise, there was no significant difference in the student-teacher ratios in their classrooms or the availability of before-and after-school programs in their schools.
Basically, it is a program for rich and middle class parents to educate their children without the presence of those dirty, poor kids who strike fear in their hearts. Better to keep their own kids sheltered from the economic unfairness that Christian supported legislators foster on America.
Read more at Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They have a host of reasons that reject the misrepresentation of vouchers by the radical religious right.
Twenty years ago Carolyn Kennedy co-authored a book. I think the title was IN OUR DEFENSE: THE BILL OF RIGHTS IN ACTION. There were a number of real life examples of how politics work and fail on different parts of the Bill of Rights. The one that profoundly impacted me was how a school district of poor Latinos in Texas sued the state to get equal funding for their school. Why? Because schools are funded primarily through property taxes. Those living in rich communities with high property values get most of all school funding. Those in mostly poor districts depend primarily on Federal funds allocated by head count. If all property taxes were collected by the state and divided by head count education would be fair for all. But it isn't done that way. The rich get it all.
The lawsuit by the Texas school district? They lost, of course.
Educate children about religion in Sunday School. Don't take money that should go to the state for all children out of my pocket to educate rich kids in a manner that doesn't resemble equality. India and China are more fair with their poor than we are with ours.
But what the hey?!! Far be it from religious bigots to look after poor kids.
Yes, compromise would be fine as long as it's handed out proportionately. Really, I'm no expert in this subject but I think there are over 300K churches still operating in the U.S. Of those, there are around 1200 (give or take) that are considered a mega church. The income accrued from donations is vastly different between a church with 50 members to one that has over 2,000. But I do get what you mean.
Well, yes. I guess I am. The only difference between those entities you mention and a church is that a church operates strictly on donations and a good deal of that money goes back out into the community to help those who need it. I don't remember the last time I saw a movie theater or day care center give back to the neighborhood. Or maybe I just missed it.
True. Every tax exempt organization must make all that available for public inspection. And they do. A good number of larger churches (with more staff) compile those reports, zap them into a pdf file and post them on their website. I can provide some from around the country, if you'd like. There are still some very small churches that don't even have a website. They must still prepare that information on hard copy but they are still available for you if you want to see it. All you have to do is ask.
Your question made me chuckle because yes, I have. An enthusiastic and robust group, they are. Not my cup of tea, though. Aside from that, I do think education should be the number one priority in a young person's life, though. An advanced degree really does allow them a better future. If it really is that way back east, that's sad. I'm sure we have that out this way but I've been fortunate to be around those who want to find the balance between their faith and getting a good education that will secure a decent living. Sorry, didn't mean to stray off topic.
Then the church can deduct the amount they put back into the community, just like all other businesses. And I have already shown one business, my wifes company, that does many community minded projects. They have to file for deductions for all charitable giving they do. Why should churches be treated differently?
And some churches do not operate strictly on donations. Some have rental halls, some have retreats, some have parking garages that are rented out during the week. One in jacksonville owns several (over 10) blocks of downtown property.
I enjoyed this post. I WAS a Southern Baptist until Jerry Falwell changed their spiritual emphasis from spiritual introspection to political activism. And I was born in Mobile, too, but left decades ago. My parents and grandparents lived and passed away there, and I visited on occasion. I pen this now while on vacation at Gulf Shores. This sets the scene for the following story.
A couple of days ago we drove from my sister's home outside of Montgomery down I-65 toward Gulf Shores. We stopped for gas and my wife suggested I get a lottery ticket for that one billion super pot. I asked the clerk and she said, "Sir, this is Alabama. We're conservative Baptists here. You're going to have to go to Florida or Georgia for a lottery ticket."
I laughed then and mentioned to my wife about how controlling Alabama Baptists are on state politics.
But while here, we decided to drive over to Florida for some scenery, so yesterday we took off. Just inside the Florida line traffic was at a standstill. A lane was closed and it took us 40 minutes to go five miles to the first exit. Suddenly, I noticed more cars from Alabama than from Florida--by a significant number. The first exit right after the closed lane was open so traffic had begun moving. Yet at that exit, cars were backed up to the freeway, most trying to make a left off the exit onto a heavily travelled two lane road. There were gas stations and Mom and Pop stores down there. We took a right instead and had to drive about 3-4 miles until we saw a single gas station at a crossroads. I'm handicapped or we would not have found a parking place. Going in, there was a line of thirty or forty people waiting to buy lottery tickets---and guess what---most there were from Alabama.
The purpose of the story is to point out that no matter how religion tries to control the behavior of people--it is doomed to failure. What Baptists had done was send potential tax dollars across state lines while benefitting from their own tax breaks.
Theocracy or even theocratic influence never considers the good of the WHOLE nation or state. They've got theirs and have no concern for your situation other than to control your behavior. If they want to control me by laws they influence, they need to pay their taxes. It's that simple.
Someone posted about all the good they do with charitable assistance. And they do some of that. But what about the burdens they add to millions of people who want to make their own moral choices or what about their implied threat of speaking to members about "representatives who may let gambling into our state?" There is no reason behind NOT taxing churches, except there is the constant political threat. And politicians in both parties are too spineless to work for ALL the people.
Can a compromise be made about the size of churches and taxation values? Of course!!! We could do that. But theocratic law appears always to be an all or nothing proposition. In the eyes of the church no compromise on anything is "godly." It becomes compromise with the devil.
Up until 30 or so years ago we had a nation where the political process was compromise. But with the rise of the religious right under Jerry and the Moral Majority, compromise became worse than defeat. Once they began controlling political parties, not even Congressmen could work out deals with one another without being demonized.
The only way to take back a free America is to tax the hell out of churches---pun intended.
What exists in America is not Christianity, it is Churchianity. The sooner free Americans realize that, the sooner we can right the ship---if it's not already to the point of no return.
Oh, yes, the good ole, "We are too Christian to allow the lottery in our state! So we go spend our money on the tickets OUT of state!!" thinking! I know all about the lottery deal though. I went to Pensacola on Saturday to take my son to the Naval Air Station Museum, and stopped to get some tickets down close to the base, and I walked right in and right out. The closer I got to the interstate, the busier the gas stations got. Almost every tag was from Alabama. On Saturday night, they even did a news story on one of the stations about how backed up the interstate was due to people from Alabama trying to get to FL for some lottery tickets before the drawing.
Most of my family is down here in the Mobile/Baldwin county area (Mobile, Loxley, Bay Minette Orange Beach), and I love it here for the most part, but there are a lot of people who take some of the joy out of it. The whole "lottery is the devil" crowd is one example. Those are the ones who do not value education.
"Theocracy or even theocratic influence never considers the good of the WHOLE nation or state. They've got theirs and have no concern for your situation other than to control your behavior. If they want to control me by laws they influence, they need to pay their taxes. It's that simple. "
This ^^^^^^
They may not have a preacher up there on Sunday telling them, "Vote for this candidate, because of this reason!", but to think they don't do that very thing (off the pulpit, but with the influence of it) is just plain ignorant.
But those children going to private school are being educated, just not in public schools who we all know waste a lot of money and keep asking for more and more.
"We" all know no such thing. Teachers need to be paid well. Schools need upkeep. Students need books and tech.
What is it with using "we"? If you know this then that should be your claim. If you believe this then use the word I. Own your belief about schools without speaking for others.
Private schools follow state mandates just like public. Sometimes, not all times, the class size is smaller.
Having experienced both, I prefer public school. My children received a great education. We were very active in their schools, and activities. When we needed to add balance to what they learned, we added balance.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,925,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
I enjoyed this post. I WAS a Southern Baptist until Jerry Falwell changed their spiritual emphasis from spiritual introspection to political activism. And I was born in Mobile, too, but left decades ago. My parents and grandparents lived and passed away there, and I visited on occasion. I pen this now while on vacation at Gulf Shores. This sets the scene for the following story.
A couple of days ago we drove from my sister's home outside of Montgomery down I-65 toward Gulf Shores. We stopped for gas and my wife suggested I get a lottery ticket for that one billion super pot. I asked the clerk and she said, "Sir, this is Alabama. We're conservative Baptists here. You're going to have to go to Florida or Georgia for a lottery ticket."
I laughed then and mentioned to my wife about how controlling Alabama Baptists are on state politics.
But while here, we decided to drive over to Florida for some scenery, so yesterday we took off. Just inside the Florida line traffic was at a standstill. A lane was closed and it took us 40 minutes to go five miles to the first exit. Suddenly, I noticed more cars from Alabama than from Florida--by a significant number. The first exit right after the closed lane was open so traffic had begun moving. Yet at that exit, cars were backed up to the freeway, most trying to make a left off the exit onto a heavily travelled two lane road. There were gas stations and Mom and Pop stores down there. We took a right instead and had to drive about 3-4 miles until we saw a single gas station at a crossroads. I'm handicapped or we would not have found a parking place. Going in, there was a line of thirty or forty people waiting to buy lottery tickets---and guess what---most there were from Alabama.
The purpose of the story is to point out that no matter how religion tries to control the behavior of people--it is doomed to failure. What Baptists had done was send potential tax dollars across state lines while benefitting from their own tax breaks.
Theocracy or even theocratic influence never considers the good of the WHOLE nation or state. They've got theirs and have no concern for your situation other than to control your behavior. If they want to control me by laws they influence, they need to pay their taxes. It's that simple.
Someone posted about all the good they do with charitable assistance. And they do some of that. But what about the burdens they add to millions of people who want to make their own moral choices or what about their implied threat of speaking to members about "representatives who may let gambling into our state?" There is no reason behind NOT taxing churches, except there is the constant political threat. And politicians in both parties are too spineless to work for ALL the people.
Can a compromise be made about the size of churches and taxation values? Of course!!! We could do that. But theocratic law appears always to be an all or nothing proposition. In the eyes of the church no compromise on anything is "godly." It becomes compromise with the devil.
Up until 30 or so years ago we had a nation where the political process was compromise. But with the rise of the religious right under Jerry and the Moral Majority, compromise became worse than defeat. Once they began controlling political parties, not even Congressmen could work out deals with one another without being demonized.
The only way to take back a free America is to tax the hell out of churches---pun intended.
What exists in America is not Christianity, it is Churchianity. The sooner free Americans realize that, the sooner we can right the ship---if it's not already to the point of no return.
Love your story about that part of Alabama and Florida. I went out with a girl who grew up in Mobile Alabama, for three years, and I'm still friends with her relatives that now live in Milton. That part of the Panhandle certainly emphasizes the point that the further north you go in Florida, the more southern it gets.
Spending half of my time in the States and in the south as a snowbird, and the other half of the time in that other Bible Belt up in Canada, certainly gives one interesting perspectives on similarities, and oh my, so many differences.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,925,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144
But those children going to private school are being educated, just not in public schools who we all know waste a lot of money and keep asking for more and more.
That is your choice to send children to a private school. The greater good is still served by all taxpayers contributing to the education of everyone. You don't get to make a pass of paying taxes because of your choice of not placing your children in public school.
One can argue that both school systems need repair. That is an entirely different subject.
Then the church can deduct the amount they put back into the community, just like all other businesses. And I have already shown one business, my wifes company, that does many community minded projects. They have to file for deductions for all charitable giving they do. Why should churches be treated differently?
And some churches do not operate strictly on donations. Some have rental halls, some have retreats, some have parking garages that are rented out during the week. One in jacksonville owns several (over 10) blocks of downtown property.
Interesting. Do you happen to know the number of members? I mean is it a mega church? Just curious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
That is your choice to send children to a private school. The greater good is still served by all taxpayers contributing to the education of everyone. You don't get to make a pass of paying taxes because of your choice of not placing your children in public school.
One can argue that both school systems need repair. That is an entirely different subject.
I wish our legislators would actually use our tax dollars for our public schools. It annoys me when they announce they're cutting parts of the budget and schools (yet again) suffer. More annoying is they never add the money back. Funny but the whole idea behind our state lottery was to provide money to public schools. Still, teachers are buying their own supplies for classrooms, kids are still selling those darned candy bars for class trips. Millions of dollars coming in from lottery sales with no sign of how schools are benefitting from it. That worked out well. As for the churches, I'm sure it won't be long and all churches will be treated just as any other business. It's inevitable. Will of the people and all that.
Interesting. Do you happen to know the number of members? I mean is it a mega church? Just curious.
I wish our legislators would actually use our tax dollars for our public schools. It annoys me when they announce they're cutting parts of the budget and schools (yet again) suffer. More annoying is they never add the money back. Funny but the whole idea behind our state lottery was to provide money to public schools. Still, teachers are buying their own supplies for classrooms, kids are still selling those darned candy bars for class trips. Millions of dollars coming in from lottery sales with no sign of how schools are benefitting from it. That worked out well. As for the churches, I'm sure it won't be long and all churches will be treated just as any other business. It's inevitable. Will of the people and all that.
I think churches will change how they operate. At one time people lived near their parish or neighborhood churches, and they were centers for social activity and support as well as worship, providing a community function though not one measurable by dollars. It's not that way anymore, and society has greatly moved since the "Acquire it!" 1980s toward making the dollar value of most things the ruling factor in making decisions.
The eyes have been cast toward church properties as underused dollars for some time now, not just by those who want religion gone from society but from the religious organizations themselves. Church organizations tend to reflect the societies and governments in which they reside. For example, we have a presiding bishop with bishops in dioceses, all of whom are elected in a democratic process. And the focus is on the valuation of the parish churches in a purely financial manner.
So it might not be a bad thing. Those of us who still believe in what my church officially stands for-- social justice, speaking up for the oppressed, caring for those who need help--will continue to do so even after the little stone church is torn down for the cardboard condos so adored by the tax ratables set. We get attached to places --I can still close my eyes and walk through the original World Trade Center--but they are only man made buildings, and they are temporary, like everything else.
Interesting. Do you happen to know the number of members? I mean is it a mega church? Just curious.
I wish our legislators would actually use our tax dollars for our public schools. It annoys me when they announce they're cutting parts of the budget and schools (yet again) suffer. More annoying is they never add the money back. Funny but the whole idea behind our state lottery was to provide money to public schools. Still, teachers are buying their own supplies for classrooms, kids are still selling those darned candy bars for class trips. Millions of dollars coming in from lottery sales with no sign of how schools are benefitting from it. That worked out well. As for the churches, I'm sure it won't be long and all churches will be treated just as any other business. It's inevitable. Will of the people and all that.
Currently about 28,000. It is one of the older churches in the area and still owns the tiny 30 seater church that it started in as well as several high rise buildings, a cafeteria that is open daily for downtown workers to purchase lunch, a skating rink, a bowling alley, several multi story parking garages that are pay parking during the week, private school buildings that people pay tuition to attend, and they recently purchased two smaller churches as satellite locations.
So yes it is a mega church now, but it was a little one small building, historic church before it used those tax advantages to become a large corporation that is still tax exempt, and it does not make its money strictly from donations.
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As for the churches, I'm sure it won't be long and all churches will be treated just as any other business. It's inevitable. Will of the people and all that.
