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And that is what I argue against you Jeff, not your belief in God, not even your literal intrepetation of the Bible but your wishing to dismantle the modern world and return to the time that Christians ruled the western world with an iron fist. If you think the past was less tolerant then the present you have either been misled (most likly the case given the way you view the world I think you have been deliberately mislead) or totally ignorant of both the past and the present. If you think toleance is only allowing people like you to discriminate and criminalize people who are not like you then perhaps you are correct but otherwise we live in a much more tolerant world than people did in the past. Tolerant at least in that it includes people who are not Christians or are Christians but of a different denonmination or world view. We see how getting rid of secularism has worked in the Islamic world since the middle of the 1970s, yes up to past the middle of this past century, during my adult lifetime, secularism was chased out of the public in much of the Islamic world resulting in the situation we have today.
I don't want to live in a world where you are free to force your religion on others, in the government, in busienss and in education. My grandparents went through those times were being the wrong religion could result in your death and people today remember when the good old religious folks of the southern states saw blacks as inferior people. You can say that would not happen under Christians but then you say a lot of things that have no bearing on reality.
It is not your belief in your God nor is it your belief that the Bible should be taken literally but your blind belief that your religion should control everyone's life and that those who are different are your enemies. But then you will twist this entire explaination to that I hate god and I hate Christians both of which would be wrong on your part but that has never stopped you in the past. That you do not get to force your religion into the schools, the government or into the business world is not intolerance as no one else does either.
And you will not find me talking about parts of the Bible as I know little more of the Bible than you do of the theory of evolution or of science but that does not stop you from declaring evolution as a lie and showing your lack of knowledge of how science works. I on the other hand simply do not believe in your Bible but have never called either it or your God a lie. You can practice intolerance all you want but you cannot convince others that we are more intolerant today then when religion ruled.
Jeff is one of those posters who would love a theocracy like Ted Cruz, Michelle Bachmann and other politicians in the US would love to have.
Maybe you can explain clearly what moral lesson on how women should be treated can be derived from that particular passage? Or how it is fine to threaten to punish women for what their husbands have done wrong?
The moral lesson is the dangers of sin and how those consequences can affect other people even innocents. David's sin most likely embolded his son to rape his sister. God didn't cause that. But sadly this woman's life suffered greatly. There is absolutely nothing in this verse or the Bible that says God approves of rape.
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Originally Posted by badlander
I would think that if the Noah's flood ever occurred all the infants and toddlers would be crying before they drown. Not sure what moral lesson was learnt from that especially when after all these babies and bunnies were drowned folks like your self still think there is evil and that your God is not able to rid the earth of it. He created everyone and everything, then he drown almost everyone and everything then he had to have his son born and the killed to rid the world of evil and now the second coming which has been coming for two millenia is needed because of all this evil.
That's the danger of judging God from only a human modern day perspective. You don't know what that ancient world was like. God saw the level of wickness and knew that if He didn't take drastic actions, the next generation would only be worse. How many times do you see the sons of evil rulers grow up to be benevolent and morally good people? It doesn't happen.
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Originally Posted by badlander
No, if you and your like minded folks are going to claim that we get our morals all out of the Bible you must be able to explain the morals of each and every passage to those who do not understand how the passage can be considered moral. If you cannot defend the Bible passages then do not demand that we accept that is where morals come from.
THat's the only card you have to play to deny the Bible. The problem is the Bible isn't meant to be read by spiritually lost people. Even the Bible says it will appear as foolishness to the unbelievers. It's not fair to throw down judgements against God without understanding what is happening behind the scenes in the spirit real and understanding the nature of God first.
The hypocritical thing here is atheists will blast God for the Flood story on the basis of infants dying in the event. Yet they also blast God for wiping out groups in the OT who actually burned babies in sacrifices to the their pagan gods. Oh those people should have been spared??
That's the danger of judging God from only a human modern day perspective. You don't know what that ancient world was like. God saw the level of wickness and knew that if He didn't take drastic actions, the next generation would only be worse. How many times do you see the sons of evil rulers grow up to be benevolent and morally good people? It doesn't happen.
That's not the danger. The real question is why didn't God, who could engineer a global flood requiring the highest level of magic, simply use his amazing powers to fix the bloody problem? Instead, he chose the path of destruction of innocents!
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The problem is the Bible isn't meant to be read by spiritually lost people. Even the Bible says it will appear as foolishness to the unbelievers. It's not fair to throw down judgements against God without understanding what is happening behind the scenes in the spirit real and understanding the nature of God first.
The hypocritical thing here is atheists will blast God for the Flood story on the basis of infants dying in the event. Yet they also blast God for wiping out groups in the OT who actually burned babies in sacrifices to the their pagan gods. Oh those people should have been spared??
I think we understand the nature of God quite well. No making excuses and covering up. God 'made' those laws that discriminated against women. God made those slave laws. God laid the law that the Israelites should kill all conquered men and take for themselves the women and children as property!!!
The moral lesson is the dangers of sin and how those consequences can affect other people even innocents. David's sin most likely embolded his son to rape his sister. God didn't cause that. But sadly this woman's life suffered greatly. There is absolutely nothing in this verse or the Bible that says God approves of rape.
That's the danger of judging God from only a human modern day perspective. You don't know what that ancient world was like. God saw the level of wickness and knew that if He didn't take drastic actions, the next generation would only be worse. How many times do you see the sons of evil rulers grow up to be benevolent and morally good people? It doesn't happen.
THat's the only card you have to play to deny the Bible. The problem is the Bible isn't meant to be read by spiritually lost people. Even the Bible says it will appear as foolishness to the unbelievers. It's not fair to throw down judgements against God without understanding what is happening behind the scenes in the spirit real and understanding the nature of God first.
The hypocritical thing here is atheists will blast God for the Flood story on the basis of infants dying in the event. Yet they also blast God for wiping out groups in the OT who actually burned babies in sacrifices to the their pagan gods. Oh those people should have been spared??
Ever hear the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right" Jeff? Both the Bible God and the humans were wrong in what they did. What don't you get. That is assuming this story is true which I don't believe it ever happened. The Bible is meant to be read by everybody according to what is says.
That's not the danger. The real question is why didn't God, who could engineer a global flood requiring the highest level of magic, simply use his amazing powers to fix the bloody problem? Instead, he chose the path of destruction of innocents!
I think we understand the nature of God quite well. No making excuses and covering up. God 'made' those laws that discriminated against women. God made those slave laws. God laid the law that the Israelites should kill all conquered men and take for themselves the women and children as property!!!
Christians can find all sorts of ways and excuses to deny the actual meanings of what the Bible says. They always gloss over the bad stuff by Bible God. It's quite something to see the contorted pretzels you have to put yourself in to excuse all the stuff.
That's not the danger. The real question is why didn't God, who could engineer a global flood requiring the highest level of magic, simply use his amazing powers to fix the bloody problem? Instead, he chose the path of destruction of innocents!
Well until you have all the facts, you can question God all you want, or come up with endless "why didn't God do it this way" scenarios, but nothing will ever satisfy you. If God gave you a river of gold, you would say, well He's God, He can do anything, why didn't He give me an OCEAN of gold?
If you actually read the entire Bible instead of focusing on a handful of OT stories then you'll see God has a tremendous deep love for man. Deep enough to endure real physical torture for our sins.
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Originally Posted by 303Guy
I think we understand the nature of God quite well. No making excuses and covering up. God 'made' those laws that discriminated against women. God made those slave laws. God laid the law that the Israelites should kill all conquered men and take for themselves the women and children as property!!!
No God made laws to ensure the survival of His people. Without those laws, the Israelities would have been destroyed by their enemies. Then you would be here boasting about how God broke his promise to Abraham.
Well until you have all the facts, you can question God all you want, or come up with endless "why didn't God do it this way" scenarios, but nothing will ever satisfy you. If God gave you a river of gold, you would say, well He's God, He can do anything, why didn't He give me an OCEAN of gold?
If you actually read the entire Bible instead of focusing on a handful of OT stories then you'll see God has a tremendous deep love for man. Deep enough to endure real physical torture for our sins.
No God made laws to ensure the survival of His people. Without those laws, the Israelities would have been destroyed by their enemies. Then you would be here boasting about how God broke his promise to Abraham.
No Jeff, if God gave me just a trickling little stream of gold I would be eternally grateful. Even just a handful.
Speaking on focusing on just a handful of OT stories, what about focusing on those little stories right in the beginning, you know, Genesis 1. The creation story? And the flood story? Tell you what, I'll trade you those two stories for all of Gods laws that are brutal and unjust (and there is a long list of them). Deal?
Did you read all the laws God gave the Israelites in the link further back? The laws that get woman stoned to death for being a rape victim? I mean how dare they bring such shame on their family! And if they don't bleed on their wedding night they can get stoned to death too. Not all woman bleed on their first time!
The physical torture was endured by one man who thought he was special. Sorry to pop your bubble there Jeff, but that man was no more the son of God than I am and no more God than I am. He was braver than I am though!
The moral lesson is the dangers of sin and how those consequences can affect other people even innocents. David's sin most likely embolded his son to rape his sister. God didn't cause that. But sadly this woman's life suffered greatly. There is absolutely nothing in this verse or the Bible that says God approves of rape.
That's the danger of judging God from only a human modern day perspective. You don't know what that ancient world was like. God saw the level of wickness and knew that if He didn't take drastic actions, the next generation would only be worse. How many times do you see the sons of evil rulers grow up to be benevolent and morally good people? It doesn't happen.
THat's the only card you have to play to deny the Bible. The problem is the Bible isn't meant to be read by spiritually lost people. Even the Bible says it will appear as foolishness to the unbelievers. It's not fair to throw down judgements against God without understanding what is happening behind the scenes in the spirit real and understanding the nature of God first.
The hypocritical thing here is atheists will blast God for the Flood story on the basis of infants dying in the event. Yet they also blast God for wiping out groups in the OT who actually burned babies in sacrifices to the their pagan gods. Oh those people should have been spared??
So you are an expert on life in Biblical times? No the thing I question is how can you claim that the Bible is the source of our morality and yet how can we get morality from a book if we are to read it totally different from how it is written? If a person has to already believe in the Bible before one can make sense of it then perhaps it should be left to only be read by believers?
I also do not get why it is so wicked to sacrifice one or two babies, if this actually happened, but fine to drown all the babies on earth? You expect us to accept your interpretation of a literal Bible but we are not allowed to question any of it? Times were different so we cannot judge what was said in the Bible however whatever can be negative about gays is not to be thought of in the terms that times have changed. The only consistency in your defence of your religion is your inconsistency.
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