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I recommend Charles Ives' "Variations on 'America.'" You may know the main theme by another name. Although the piece was written for organ, orchestral and concert band transcriptions are widely performed. It's not often done on organ since it is quite difficult to perform.
Yes, the hated Brutish national anthem. I have the organ version together with some of his Bach -style college homework and "Adeste Fideles', (1) which also appears in Decoration day of the 'Holidays' symphony'. "4th of July" (if your ears can stand it) is appropriate to the day.
(1) written as a schoolboy as a funeral march for a dead pet cat...not many people know that.. Nor that (despite being a devout God -believer) he married Mark Twain's niece or daughter perhaps.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-01-2016 at 08:38 PM..
The Old Testament and other sources reveal that underneath the Temple was a source of spring water from a natural spring nearby, the Gihon Spring (mentioned by this name in 2 Chron. 32:30, probably named after one of the four rivers flowing out of the Garden of Eden; the Temple itself was God's abode, like the Garden). The location of this Spring is seen on ancient maps of Jerusalem, and is shown below in relation to the Haram. It was over 1,000 ft south of the present Dome of the Rock. There is no other natural spring in a five mile radius of Jerusalem. King Hezekiah built a tunnel to bring the waters of the Spring to David's City (2 Chron. 32.30), and the waters exited at Siloam Pool. The Temple was built above the Spring so that the water could be drawn up for purification purposes. The Gihon spring is mentioned by other ancient writers such as Aristeas, Philo and Tacitus. Nehemiah's Water Gate (Neh. 12) was directly opposite to the Spring.
Eyewitnesses such as Josephus have stated that the Temple could not be seen from the north because it was obstructed by the Fort to the north which was at a higher elevation.
The Old Testament and other sources reveal that underneath the Temple was a source of spring water from a natural spring nearby, the Gihon Spring (mentioned by this name in 2 Chron. 32:30, probably named after one of the four rivers flowing out of the Garden of Eden; the Temple itself was God's abode, like the Garden). The location of this Spring is seen on ancient maps of Jerusalem, and is shown below in relation to the Haram. It was over 1,000 ft south of the present Dome of the Rock. There is no other natural spring in a five mile radius of Jerusalem. King Hezekiah built a tunnel to bring the waters of the Spring to David's City (2 Chron. 32.30), and the waters exited at Siloam Pool. The Temple was built above the Spring so that the water could be drawn up for purification purposes. The Gihon spring is mentioned by other ancient writers such as Aristeas, Philo and Tacitus. Nehemiah's Water Gate (Neh. 12) was directly opposite to the Spring.
Eyewitnesses such as Josephus have stated that the Temple could not be seen from the north because it was obstructed by the Fort to the north which was at a higher elevation.
10And a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it separated and became four heads.
11The name of one is Pishon; that is the one that encompasses all the land of Havilah, where there is gold.
Rashi:
Pishon: This is the Nile, the river of Egypt, and because its waters are blessed, and they rise and water the land, it is called Pishon, like (Hab. 1:8):“and their riders shall increase (וּפָשׁוּ) .” (Unknown midrash, quoted by Zeror Hamor, below 41:1, Letters of Rabbi Akiva). Another explanation: [It is called] Pishon because it causes flax (פִשְׁתָן) to grow, as is stated in reference to Egypt (Isa. 19:9):“And those who work at flax (פִּשְׁתִּים)…shall be ashamed” (Gen. Rabbah 16:2).
Ok. That's well argued. And you make a nice job of reducing the temple to a size that can fit on Ophel. It is TINY (I make it 100 m. side to side, tops...the entire complex) compared to the Herodian Temple site.
There is still the question of the archaeology indicating a palace rather than a temple, that one stone of that archaeology is in any case on another, and if not the Last Days "Things" haven't come to pass and the Generation of that time is as past as the Plateosaur.
The descent from the Mount of Olives does not feasibly connect with a Temple located there.
The objections seem purely based on the location of a spring which is claimed to rise in the temple. It's a bit odd now I come to think of it because if both Temple sites are built on platforms of solid stone, where would the spring come up? In either case there has to be some plumbing done to get the water into the temple - either site.
The objection that the temple couldn't be seen from the north is not a problem. Even the small Antonia garrison fort to the north of the Present temple site overlooked (and obscured) it. If it couldn't be seen because all of Temple mount was in the way, it would hardly require mention.
And of course, Jews today swear that it is the temple site. If they are wrong about that, why can't they be wrong about the much older Temple location and what springs were where?
This is several stones on another...whatever it is, and it doesn't look like temple archaeology.
And it appears the answer to the 'Platform covers spring' problem is that Gihon didn't serve any one building. It was used to fill Siloam Pool and that served an aqueduct (Hasmonean -Pilate built another one) which supplied everyone including the Temple, I suppose. Since water doesn't flow uphill, the Temple must have had a well or shaft to access the water. Call that a 'spring'.
"During the Second Temple period, a vault was built over the spring, to which one could descend via a long staircase. Water flowed from the spring along Hezekiah's Tunnel to the Siloam Pool, (John 9:7) which is located in the low, southern part of the Tyropoeon Valley, west of the City of David.
Three waterworks, fed by the Gihon spring, were carved into the rock beneath the City of David in antiquity and they are the most complex and advanced of any known from Biblical cities. The systems were planned in different periods, served varied purposes and functioned in distinct ways. All three water systems were in operation simultaneously in the First Temple period, and each contributed to the efficiency of the city's water supply. They also attest to the efforts of the kings of ancient Jerusalem to guarantee the water supply in time of siege."
Ok. That's well argued. And you make a nice job of reducing the temple to a size that can fit on Ophel. It is TINY (I make it 100 m. side to side, tops...the entire complex) compared to the Herodian Temple site.
There is still the question of the archaeology indicating a palace rather than a temple, that one stone of that archaeology is in any case on another, and if not the Last Days "Things" haven't come to pass and the Generation of that time is as past as the Plateosaur.
The descent from the Mount of Olives does not feasibly connect with a Temple located there.
The objections seem purely based on the location of a spring which is claimed to rise in the temple. It's a bit odd now I come to think of it because if both Temple sites are built on platforms of solid stone, where would the spring come up? In either case there has to be some plumbing done to get the water into the temple - either site.
They had water drawer people to draw the water, must likely using buckets just as they did the Gibeonites in the Old Testament who tried to trick Joshua into thinking they came from a far away country. So Joshua made them wood hewers and water bearers for the tabernacle.
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The objection that the temple couldn't be seen from the north is not a problem. Even the small Antonia garrison fort to the north of the Present temple site overlooked (and obscured) it. If it couldn't be seen because all of Temple mount was in the way, it would hardly require mention.
And of course, Jews today swear that it is the temple site. If they are wrong about that, why can't they be wrong about the much older Temple location and what springs were where?
But they didn't always swear it is the temple site.
This is several stones on another...whatever it is, and it doesn't look like temple archaeology.
It shouldn't be. In the recent article I linked, the Muslims took away ALL the stones in order to build their temple where the guard barracks used to be.
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And it appears the answer to the 'Platform covers spring' problem is that Gihon didn't serve any one building. It was used to fill Siloam Pool and that served an aqueduct (Hasmonean -Pilate built another one) which supplied everyone including the Temple, I suppose. Since water doesn't flow uphill, the Temple must have had a well or shaft to access the water. Call that a 'spring'.
"During the Second Temple period, a vault was built over the spring, to which one could descend via a long staircase. Water flowed from the spring along Hezekiah's Tunnel to the Siloam Pool, (John 9:7) which is located in the low, southern part of the Tyropoeon Valley, west of the City of David.
Right and the city of david was, according to the map, where the temple actually was, not where they think it was TODAY.
Quote:
Three waterworks, fed by the Gihon spring, were carved into the rock beneath the City of David in antiquity and they are the most complex and advanced of any known from Biblical cities. The systems were planned in different periods, served varied purposes and functioned in distinct ways. All three water systems were in operation simultaneously in the First Temple period, and each contributed to the efficiency of the city's water supply. They also attest to the efforts of the kings of ancient Jerusalem to guarantee the water supply in time of siege
They had water drawer people to draw the water, must likely using buckets just as they did the Gibeonites in the Old Testament who tried to trick Joshua into thinking they came from a far away country. So Joshua made them wood hewers and water bearers for the tabernacle.
What has that to do with the water system supplying all sites with water from the spring?
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But they didn't always swear it is the temple site.
That doesn't matter. It is the 2nd temple site we are talking about.
Quote:
It shouldn't be. In the recent article I linked, the Muslims took away ALL the stones in order to build their temple where the guard barracks used to be.
That doesn't matter either. The remaining archaeology shows that the Herodian Temple couldn't have been on the Ophel.
Quote:
right and the city of david was, according to the map, where the temple actually was, not where they think it was TODAY.
Then whatever the map says, the archaeeology, never mind the smallmess of the site, shows that the 2nd Temple couldn't have been there.
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That's okay if you don't think it is working. I think it works beautifully.
Even when all the evidence is against it and the one bit of serious evidence you had - the Gihon spring - doesn't mean a thing after all.
In any case - what a pointless digression. Whether the Temple was on Temple mount or the Ophel, stones are clearly piled one on another - still; so the remark is either a failed prophecy or is metaphorical in referring to the destruction of the temple - wherever it was. And the Things predicted have not come to pass, even though that generation is long gone. So -as was said - the prophecy has to be reinterpreted to make it refer to all the humanity and we are still waiting.
That works beautifully, too, if you can believe it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-02-2016 at 12:42 PM..
In any case - what a pointless digression. Whether the Temple was on Temple mount or the Ophel, stones are clearly piled one on another - still; so the remark is either a failed prophecy or is metaphorical in referring to the destruction of the temple - wherever it was. And the Things predicted have not come to pass, even though that generation is long gone. So -as was said - the prophecy has to be reinterpreted to make it refer to all the humanity and we are still waiting.
That works beautifully, too, if you can believe it.
"The fact that the walls of this fort has still some 10,000 stones on its walls prove this was not the wall around the Temple. The Romans broke down every wall, and removed every stone, not only of the Temple, but also of its walls. The incentive for this destructive act was not just vengeance, but the greed for gold which had melted down the cracks as the Temple burned down.The Romans had no reason to destroy their own city because they were occupying it. In fact the Roman legions left Jerusalem only in 289 AD. Other reason for not choosing the Haram will be given below.
So, if Herod's temple was within the Roman compound which some today mistake as the Temple Mount, the Romans would have pulled out all the stones of that compound to get at all the gold which flowed in between the stones as the temple burned.
After Rome completely leveled the real Temple Mount where Herod's temple was, calif Omar took the the foundation stones, which the Romans had pulled away, and used those to build the present Muslim Temple. This is why there is no trace of any temple ever being there. But the historians say it was there and not where the Jews today think the temple was.
As to "This generation" which Jesus spoke to, which was that generation of Jews and not the entire world, He said:
And at some saying concerning the sanctuary, that it is adorned with ideal stones and votive offerings, He said, These which you are beholding-there will be coming days in which not a stone will be left here on a stone, which will not be demolished." Now they inquire of Him, saying, "Teacher, when, then, will these things be, and what is the sign whenever these things may be about to be occurring? Now He said, "Beware that you may not be deceived, for many shall be coming in My name, saying that I am!' and 'The season is near!' You may not, then, be going after them." Now whenever you should be hearing battles and turbulences you may not be dismayed, for these things must occur first, but not immediately is the consummation." Then He said to them, "Roused shall be nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom." Besides, there shall be great quakes and, in places, famines and pestilences. There shall be fearful sights besides great signs also from heaven." Yet before all these things they shall be laying their hands on you and they shall be persecuting you, giving you up into the synagogues and jails, being led off to kings and governors on account of My name." Yet it shall be eventuating to you for a testimony. Ponder, then, in your hearts not to be premeditating a defense, for I will be giving you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you shall not be able to withstand or contradict." Yet you shall be given up by parents also, and brothers and relatives and friends, and they shall be putting some of you to death." And you shall be hated by all because of My name. And a hair of your head should by no means be perishing. By your endurance shall you be acquiring your souls. Now whenever you may be perceiving Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that her desolation is near." Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains, and let those in her midst be coming out into the country, and let not those in the country be entering into her, for days of vengeance are these, to fulfill all that is written." Yet woe to those who are pregnant, and to those suckling in those days; for there will be great necessity in the land and indignation on this people." And they shall be falling by the edge of the sword and shall be led into captivity into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden by the nations, until the eras of the nations may be fulfilled." And there shall be signs in the sun and the moon and the constellations, and on the earth pressure of nations in perplexity, at the resounding of the sea and the shaking, at the chilling of men from fear and apprehensiveness of that which is coming on the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." And then they shall be seeing the Son of Mankind coming in a cloud with power and much glory. Now at the beginning of these occurrences, unbend and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is drawing near." And He told them a parable: "Perceive the fig tree and all the trees." Whenever they should be already budding, you, observing for yourselves, know it is because summer is already near." Thus you also, whenever you may be perceiving these things occurring, know that near is the kingdom of God." Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all should be occurring." Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words shall by no means be passing by." Now take heed to yourselves, lest at some time your hearts should be burdened with crapulence and drunkenness and the worries of life's affairs, and that day may be standing by you unawares, as a trap, for it will intrude on all those sitting on the surface of the entire earth." Now be vigilant, on every occasion beseeching that you may be prevailing to escape all these things which are about to occur, and to stand in front of the Son of Mankind."
(Luk 21:5-36)
And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary." Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished." Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon? And, answering, Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one should be deceiving you." For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many." Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation." For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places." Yet all these are the beginning of pangs. Then shall they be giving you up to affliction, and they shall be killing you, and you shall be hated by all of the nations because of My name." And then many shall be snared, and they shall be giving one another up and hating one another." And many false prophets shall be roused, and shall be deceiving many." And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling." Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved." And heralded shall be this evangel of the kingdom in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving." Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);" then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house. And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak. Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!" Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath, for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring." And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted." Then, if anyone should be saying to you, 'Lo! here is the Christ! or 'Here!' you should not be believing it." For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen." Lo! I have declared it to you beforehand. If, then, they should say to you, 'Lo! in the wilderness is he!' you may not be coming out' 'Lo! in the storerooms!' you should not be believing it." For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." Wheresoever the corpse may be, there will the vultures be gathered." Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory." And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities." Now from the fig tree learn a parable: Whenever its bough may already be becoming tender, and the leaves sprouting out, you know that summer is near." Thus you, also, whenever you may be perceiving all these things, know that He is near-at the doors." Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by." Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only." For even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." For as they were in those days before the deluge, masticating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all away, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left. Be watching, then, for you are not aware on what day your Lord is coming." Now that be knowing, for if the householder were aware in what watch the thief is coming, he would watch, and would not let his house be tunneled into." Therefore you also become ready, for in an hour which you are not supposing, the Son of Mankind is coming." Who, consequently, is the faithful and prudent slave whom the lord places over his household to give them nourishment in season? Happy is that slave whom his lord, coming, will be finding doing thus." Verily, I am saying to you that over all his possessions will he be placing him." Now if that evil slave should be saying in his heart, 'Delaying is my lord,'" and should begin to beat his fellow slaves, yet may be eating and drinking with the drunken, the lord of that slave will be arriving on a day for which he is not hoping, and in an hour which he knows not, and shall be cutting him asunder, and will be appointing his part with the hypocrites. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth."
(Mat 24:1-51)
If you will kindly note, Jesus is saying this also concerning His return to earth. The disciples asked "What is the sign of Thy presence and the conclusion of the eon?" That is a major clue to the rest of the discourse Jesus gives in answer to that question. There must be a resurrection as prophesied by Daniel of the just and the unjust Jews for them to be alive and witness all these events and not just the destruction of the temple prior to Christ's return. The temple must be rebuilt for them to see the abomination therein. That generation who will be resurrected will be persecuted prior to His return. They must be very vigilant in order to escape that great persecution of 3 and 1/2 years.
So, NO!, in fact it is not a failed prophecy and indeed is not metaphorical in its essence. It is prophetic fact and will occur.
Sorry. There are no two ways about it - either the stones on Temple mount are the Temple or the stones on the Ophel are. Either way, they are still there, so either way the claim that every trace was removed can't be true. If so, there is no reason why Temple mount can't be the site of the temple, and there are good reasons to reject ho Ophel as the site. The only point you had - the spring - has collapsed. It rather undermines Dr Martins' credibility that he didn't know (or ignored) what I found out in a couple of days.
I don't see what the point is of copying and pasting the whole talk on the mount of Olives. I think we are all aware of the Daniel derived Last Days, which they were waiting for in the 1st c as we are still waiting in the 21st.
Sorry. There are no two ways about it - either the stones on Temple mount are the Temple or the stones on the Ophel are. Either way, they are still there, so either way the claim that every trace was removed can't be true. If so, there is no reason why Temple mount can't be the site of the temple, and there are good reasons to reject ho Ophel as the site. The only point you had - the spring - has collapsed. It rather undermines Dr Martins' credibility that he didn't know (or ignored) what I found out in a couple of days.
I don't see what the point is of copying and pasting the whole talk on the mount of Olives. I think we are all aware of the Daniel derived Last Days, which they were waiting for in the 1st c as we are still waiting in the 21st.
I would say that things are fulfilled in every generation, and that Revelation and Matthew 24 were written for every generation but that's me. The Temple standing right now is Ezekiel's Temple. Many of the old wise men, Rabbis and scholars say it was a mythical temple that could not be built, but it is built and it is the temple so often referred to in scripture about Jesus building it. He is the water that came rushing from the side of the Temple.
Sorry. There are no two ways about it - either the stones on Temple mount are the Temple or the stones on the Ophel are. Either way, they are still there, so either way the claim that every trace was removed can't be true. If so, there is no reason why Temple mount can't be the site of the temple, and there are good reasons to reject ho Ophel as the site. The only point you had - the spring - has collapsed. It rather undermines Dr Martins' credibility that he didn't know (or ignored) what I found out in a couple of days.
I don't see what the point is of copying and pasting the whole talk on the mount of Olives. I think we are all aware of the Daniel derived Last Days, which they were waiting for in the 1st c as we are still waiting in the 21st.
The point of my pasting the entire Talk Jesus had with His disciples is to show He was talking about His return to earth in the future. Therefore that generation has to be resurrected. Therefore the timing for the things He spoke about were in the very far-off future when He returns, and it concerns "the end of the eon." AFTER they are resurrected they will see these things occur. So Jesus wasn't wrong.
I gave you plenty of information as to why the present temple mount can't be the one in the time of Herod and why no stones are remaining of that temple. If you don't get it, fine. Sorry I couldn't help. Just quit saying the prophecy failed that no stone was left upon another when you've been show that, in fact, the prophetic statement came to pass even if you refuse to believe it.
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