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Why are you deflecting away from the topic of discussion?
I recall a journalist here talking to a Russian diplomat about something Russia had done..about the time of the winter Olympics. He demanded to know why he wasn't looking at bad things other countries were doing.
I wondered whether others watching saw through this hamfisted evasion. Probably not. We don't teach critcal thinking in any school I know of, anywhere in the world.
The only place I know where it it taught, again and again, is on atheist websites
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
I agree that it's shameful misuse of funds, but why is no one complaining about the CEO's of banks and large corporations, who also have special tax status thanks to loopholes they lobbied for, for taking home millions in "bonuses" as they fleece a lot more people (and eliminate jobs to boot) than one pastor does? There is substantial evidence that the banks even set up the foreclosure bust precisely because they knew they would get a bailout (AND the houses). Peace
There are complaints about those, and indeed the abuse of financial loopholes by politicians here (In the US I don't know about). And we do feel that they are allowed to get away with too much.
However, don't fall into the trap of the fallacy of the speeding motorists asking why the cop isn't out chasing real criminals.
Their church pays her and her husband a combined salary of $1,350,000 annually....Surely they can afford to pay the taxes on their multiple properties...Who the hell needs five homes anyway?
They have quite a scam going there.......Greed personified!
That certainly is the implication that a pastor can not be wealthy and Christian. If she is truly giving over 80% of the funds to charitable functions then I don't see any fault with enjoying the blessings of living comfortable. For all we know, these houses were funded by sales of her books and there is nothing wrong with personally profiting from one's hard work. She has been under IRS investigation on and off for over a decade. Funny that no charges are ever brought forth.
Do you think she is "beyond reproach"? Is she "beyond reproach" when her ministry has to address "lingering controversies" and ethical questions?
If you earned millions of $ such that even living on 20% of it allowed you to have 5 houses, is there any scenario in which it would be right not to pay taxes on that, even if the tax code unambiguously allowed it?
The exemptions for churches aren't meant for a church or any individual within it to be rich as Croesus. It is meant to make small charitable organizations more viable and able to focus on good works.
There is nothing inherently wrong with being wealthy, and people debate the morality of hoarding personal wealth beyond a certain point, and what the responsibility is to do philanthropic and other good works with the excess. But a leader of a church having five personal residences is surely not something you can justify or defend.
'Poverty'. Right. She gives 80% of her donations to charity, and somehow still has money for five homes, and you consider that 'poverty'?
No, Jeff was attempting to argue that because you think this pastor mishandles her wealth, you believe that no pastor can be virtuous unless poor. A complete non-sequitur and a diversion from the actual moral questions under discussion. Also putting words in your mouth.
'Poverty'. Right. She gives 80% of her donations to charity, and somehow still has money for five homes, and you consider that 'poverty'?
What possible reason could she have for owning five homes? Has any of her money trickled down to her congregation? 'Cause if she's living high on the hog with five homes and her flock is struggling along with one house basic necessities like the rest of us, she's sure presenting a p**s-poor example of 'stewardship'.
Bill Gates -- who has a single (just one) home (though I'll freely admit, it's a really expensive house) -- earned the money he's spent to furnish it through decades of hard work (no religion-related tax-breaks for him), and now donates the majority of his income to charitable causes. As of 2007, he and his wife have donated $28 billion to charity. He and his wife plan to eventually direct 95% of their personal fortune to charitable causes.
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation owns around $34 billion in assets and their benefactors are allowed to see exactly where their donations go. Hint: none of it goes to buying five houses for Bill and Melinda.
Meanwhile, a lone pastor donates 80% of her wealth to charity and can still afford five parsonages.
You tell me which of them is more worthy of my respect.
If she had one nice house, you would still be complaining. If she gave 99% of the income to charity and lived in a cardboard shack, you would complain, I'm sure. The bottom line is you are judging her ministry from afar without all the facts. If she is doing wrong then the IRS would have nailed her by now.
If she is doing wrong then the IRS would have nailed her by now.
It can take the IRS 3 or 4 years to inquire about a missing personal tax return, so I wouldn't put much stock in that.* They are a perfect example of the "long arm of the law". Slow and mindlessly bureaucratic but inexorable. They "should" have nailed her by now but that in no way suggests that they won't.
* Unfortunately it works both ways. I know someone who got a rare full "innocent spouse" exemption and it took the various field offices 3 or 4 years to quit dunning them. Every time some regional collection officer who hadn't gotten the memo saw the case, they wanted to send threatening letters, all of which had to be answered, with a corresponding lawyer's bill.
Did you even read the article? The houses, and the utilities, are being paid for with church funds.
Are you OK with that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100
So yes, you think it is fine for a pastor to own 5 homes, call them "parsonages", and escape tax.
I'm still waiting for some explanation why it is OK for the church to pay for 5 homes and utilities. I'm guessing Petunia would like to hear it too.
I think somebody living near that church should file a complaint with the local authorities stating that they have been harmed by higher property taxes due to the [non-religious] tax exempt status of the housing properties.
If she had one nice house, you would still be complaining. If she gave 99% of the income to charity and lived in a cardboard shack, you would complain, I'm sure. The bottom line is you are judging her ministry from afar without all the facts. If she is doing wrong then the IRS would have nailed her by now.
Can you point to posts of ours beefing about Pastors in that position - or are you saying they are all doing well out of fleecing their flocks and defrauding the state?
This kind of thing manifests in different ways in different congregations. I was church shopping once and ran across a recently established church of maybe a couple hundred members where the young pastor already had a snazzy new Corvette and a blinged-out wife. I ran, and did not walk, from that church. I got the impression that the people saw the pastor as hip, successful, visionary, bold, edgy ... or something like that. In other words they were aspiring on some level to his implied promise of godliness married with plenty. Even though this wasn't overtly a "prosperity gospel"-teaching church, the only way I can think of for a pastor to get away with living high on the hog (and, of necessity, demanding generous contributions from the working stiffs in his congregation) is to teach that you, too, can be blessed like that.
In short, greedy pastors attract greedy parishioners. And when they are emboldened by getting away with more and more largesse, and get more and more hero-worship from their followers, they start to believe some of their own BS and think they are impervious to the attentions of the IRS.
In fairness, that conceit is not unique to Christians. Every criminal enterprise eventually overreaches and runs into the long arm of the law.
Sadly the Corvette-coveting pastor was not unique in my experience. Another church I attended for a bit was trying to diversify into a senior facility in which they were selling "shares" to members, very similar to the scandal that brought Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker down. I bailed on that one, too. Later, after I left the faith, I knew some people who attended a church that had some kind of Ponzi investment scheme going that bankrupted dozens of families, disgraced the pastor, and left a half-finished church building (one of those ugly, utilitarian "pole barns" that evangelicals tend to favor) as a blight on a major street corner I was obliged to pass daily. They couldn't even afford to tear it down.
There were of course a dozen or so other churches I was part of that were not into that kind of thing. I'm in no way suggesting that all, or even most, such churches are of that ilk. But it's ALL too common.
Yes, a woman I work with told me that her church buys the houses of members who are going into foreclosure. The owners then get to stay in the house while they get their finances together, and meanwhile, I presume, the church does not have to pay real estate taxes on the property. Then, if the originals owners get it together, the church sells them their house back. Didn't sound quote kosher to me.
Kind of glad to belong to a broke church.
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