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It's the difference between saying "life must be this way" after reading one book by one author, as compared to say reading 100 books by 100 different authors. Which gives you a more learned view of the mysteries of life?
Beliefs and belief systems are like shoes, they are very limited, they may take us to one place, but then they get too tight, they don't fit, they wear out and we need a new pair to take us more places.
Questions like the one in the opening post just smack of "i know it all" and "there is nothing more for me to learn" which is the absolute antithesis of the process of living, growing, learning, expanding, evolving, and becoming more enlightened.
to say "it can't be so" is a closed door = is equal to a closed mind.
That depends what you mean by "hearing the voices" and "evidence". If you hear a bump in the night, is that evidence that there is a prowler in the house? Not necessarily.. but you DID hear something.. and it made you get up and look. If you found nothing, it was no evidence. If you find a prowler, it was. Altho that will not guarantee that every bump in the night will be a prowler.
When it comes to God, evidence, many times, is only the beginning of the search.. not the end. See this post: http://www.city-data.com/forum/2986890-post18.html We will only find out if it is evidence or not if it is followed.
No. Hearing the voices in your head is NOT the same as hearing a bump in the night from a prowler or your cat. One is real and the other only exists in your brain. The real one moves air molecules and can be heard by others.
There are cases of people who hear music in their heads. The origin of the music is in their brain in response to damaged hearing. No air molecules are moved and no one else can ever hear it. The music is not real. Same with any other thing in any one's head that doesn't exist in the real world.
You can do what you like with your voices and make them mean whatever you like (so long as it doesn't harm others). It just is not evidence of reality.
Is it possible or logical for a rational person to invent something, with no evidence, in order to truly believe in it?
Yes, I believe it happens all the time and in the case of religion they don't have to do the inventing because that's already been done for them centuries ago. It also makes it seem more acceptable when the majority of the population already believes in religion even though there's no evidence to substantiate it and it's based on faith. It's not just religion, there's all kinds of beliefs that people accept without evidence. A good example is astrology which millions of people believe in and yet there's not a shred of evidence that mysterious forces from the planets affect a person at the moment of their birth and somehow fixes that moment in such a way that it shapes their personality. I also think people believe things because it's just fun to believe in them. The belief that aliens are visiting our planet might fall into that category. Also, once a certain set of ideas really gets into someone's imagination it sometimes starts off as a curiosity or interest and in time becomes a rock solid belief despite the fact that there's nothing whatsoever in the form of evidence that supports it.
No. Hearing the voices in your head is NOT the same as hearing a bump in the night from a prowler or your cat. One is real and the other only exists in your brain. The real one moves air molecules and can be heard by others.
I think you missed the point. What I was trying to describe was what constitutes "evidence". It can be proven or disproven in our own lives personally, and what one sees as evidence, another may not understand.. unless it is someone else who has also seen this evidence, and found it to be true.
Back to the "bump" analogy.. yes, it is very real to many people. There are many "bumps in the night" in our lives. Some put thier fingers in their ears.. some start to check it out but turn back because they fear what others will think... some are afraid of what they will find, and what it may cost them... and some are maybe in the process of trying to figure out if it really is a "bump", and if so, what would be the best way to find the source?
(and no, I don't hear voices in my head, and no, I can't make my "evidence" mean whatever I like)
No. Hearing the voices in your head is NOT the same as hearing a bump in the night from a prowler or your cat. One is real and the other only exists in your brain. The real one moves air molecules and can be heard by others.
It just is not evidence of reality.
No, it is evidence of ANOTHER reality.
It is a DIFFERENT reality but it exists.
It is the reality of, for example, dreams....no one else can see or verify your dreams, but they are real to you, you know what you see and experience in your dreams. You are visiting another reality.
There are quite simply two realities, and you do an excellent job of defining them: one is "ordinary reality" and that is the one that other people can verify for you. The other is "non-ordinary reality."
So rather than say it does not exist, it is more accurate to say that you do not acknowledge it s existence. Like a country you have not visited before. But it is not correct to say "Africa does not exist" simply because you have not been there. Nor is it correct to say "Those who say they have been to Africa are just making it up." (or are delusional or mentally ill or whatever)
Many go there and go there regularly. You actually do go there, every time you sleep, in your dreams. Creative artists go there frequently for ideas and inspiration. Healers in many traditions go there for information to help individuals in their communities. It is a different land, a DIFFERENT REALITY but it does exist.
The human mind invents an alternate memory when something too traumatic happens to them. Its reasonable to believe that someone way back there came up with the idea of religion because the alternative was too much to deal with.
An effort to find something meaningful, magical where there isn't anything.
Sorry, my dreams are all in my head - not some alternate reality. My brain takes input from my experiences along with my memories and does some interesting things with it, but it is all made up in my head. Just because some of them are so vivid that it takes me a bit after waking to realize I just dreamed it does not make it real or show any evidence of some alternate universe that can't be detected.
I suppose there could be other dimensions that we haven't been able to detect and some things could be happening there we don't have the ability to detect, but so far, there is zero evidence of this. Unless some detection that is not a fraud like all the other spiritualist claims have been shown to be can be made, the more rational explanation of brain activity and imagination stands. It doesn't take away from my ability to reason and feel my emotions. I don't need to attribute it to some magical being. The brain is an amazing organ, but there is nothing magical happening in there. Sometimes there is delusion and it takes some practice to organize thoughts and use logic without falling prey to the many self delusions that impair reasoning. We all are subject to self-delusion, even those of us who try hard not to.
I did not misunderstand the so-called evidence. I don't accept that imaginings in someone's head that is attributed to god constitutes evidence. All the other gobbledy **** is just that and immaterial. What you are calling evidence is no such thing. It is just your interpretation for your emotional needs. That is fine and may make you a better person, just don't imagine that it is some sort of proof of the supernatural.
Reason demands the most likely explanation with demonstrable evidence is the one to believe, never the supernatural when perfectly natural and measurable events explain it.
The human mind invents an alternate memory when something too traumatic happens to them.
I agree with that. The most painful traumatic event is of course the loss of a loved one and I've always thought that this is at the heart of why mankind invented religion in the first place. It's not just loved ones, it's also the thought of ourselves and the fact that our bodies are going to die. It's much easier to accept the idea of an everlasting life in a spiritual realm rather than accepting the fact that our lives end at some point.
"People felt the need to feel comfort/justified so they invented a God to believe in."..."People believe what they want to believe."
Whenever I see statements like this, I'm always a little amazed that people believe these statements, which to me seem illogical (but I guess people believe what they want to believe! ).
The way I see it:
If I need to "create" something, this means that I know it hasn't existed. So then, I "create" it in my mind, and after that, I truly believe it exists??
Is it possible or logical for a rational person to invent something, with no evidence, in order to truly believe in it?
What do you think?
Keep in mind that very few people actually "create" the concept in their minds. The source comes from outside in most cases. You are either raised with it, and taught to accept it from an early age, or you convert later on. If it is later on, the outside source is often another person or some sort of text whether it be a pamphlet or a book.
So, there is no real creation involved, just the power of suggestion hard at work. Oftentimes it is coupled with reinforcement such as:
Fear of eternal torture.
Hope of eternal reward.
Promises of happiness and/or fulfillment.
Promises of social acceptance.
Hope to overcome personal problems.
Assertions of moral superiority.
and so forth.
===========
In truth, I tend to think it boils down to fear of the unknown, something which it is only natural that we have.
Death is a big mystery and it is a frightening thing. Considering it the end of everything as far as a person is concerned isn't particularly pleasant.
It is easy to latch on to something even if you know you are deluding yourself if it provides comfort.
Just think about how many people are superstitious regarding the minor details of their day to day lives.
Combine that concept with some powerful psychological pressure and a healthy dose of fear and you have the long and short of how people can buy into such things.
At least that is how I see it.
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). It just is not evidence of reality.
).
