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I understand that it's easy to reject the words of Christ because it almost impossible to make it into Heaven. This is particularly true for those that are wealthy and powerful.
Atheism means there is ultimately no personal responsibility. It means there are no consequences for how you lived your life on earth. It means there is no justice.
You see, governments turn on people. They've done it all throughout history. How many times have genocides occurred? How many times have we gone to war?
Christs tells us to love our enemies. If all adhered to the words of Christ, there would be no wars, no anger, no hostility, but only peace and harmony.
However, the flaw in Christianity is that it is only as strong as it's weakest link, which is why it will always be doomed to failure.
So, perhaps soon, after a liquidity crisis causes banks to consolidate, the power structure will be more concentrated. We can only assume that there is an increasing probability that those in power will be less likely to believe in the Christian God and the consequences that come with it. It's easy that way.
So what happens when automation makes 99% of jobs obsolete? Do you believe that the government will provide for its people? Why would it do this? Why would people be altruistic? Why should they be?
Remember, there are no consequences. There is no fundamental justice. Maybe justice is decreasing the population. What a terrible existence and you are all unwittingly contributing to your own demise.
No accountability. What a terrible world that lies ahead.
But to be an atheist, is freedom. No consequences. No justice.
All interesting points, but what makes it more interesting is that these points really only make sense through the lens of someone who believes there is an afterlife or a god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster
I understand that it's easy to reject the words of Christ because it almost impossible to make it into Heaven. This is particularly true for those that are wealthy and powerful.
Someone who does believe there's a god might reject christianity because they don't want to part with their wealth - sure. Someone who doesn't believe there is a god would reject Christianity on the grounds that it doesn't make any sense. Their wealth would be irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster
Atheism means there is ultimately no personal responsibility. It means there are no consequences for how you lived your life on earth. It means there is no justice.
I understand that the "responsibility" and "consequences" and "justice" you refer to are supernatural, afterlife type things. In the society we live in today, there is absolutely personal responsibility and consequences. They're just not divinely inspired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster
You see, governments turn on people. They've done it all throughout history. How many times have genocides occurred? How many times have we gone to war?
Christs tells us to love our enemies. If all adhered to the words of Christ, there would be no wars, no anger, no hostility, but only peace and harmony.
You are not convincing me
How many wars have been started by Christians? A lot.
Something Steven Weinberg said is:
"[Speaking of religion] With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster
However, the flaw in Christianity is that it is only as strong as it's weakest link, which is why it will always be doomed to failure.
Conversely that argument works for everything. If good people ran the world it would all be peace and harmony, but unfortunately we're only as strong as our weakest link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster
So what happens when automation makes 99% of jobs obsolete? Do you believe that the government will provide for its people? Why would it do this? Why would people be altruistic? Why should they be?
If by automation, you're refering to AGI, then it depends on who gets there first and what their goals are. If their goals are to help humanity, then providing for us will be in the hands of the AGI and not the government.
If the plans are world domination, then you really have no hope anyways.
All in all, keep in mind that some people really truly do not think there is any such thing as a god or an afterlife. Personally, I don't think those concepts make sense.
It's actually rather offensive to argue that they're lying and the true reason is they want to protect their wealth.
I understand that it's easy to reject the words of Christ because it almost impossible to make it into Heaven. This is particularly true for those that are wealthy and powerful.
Atheism means there is ultimately no personal responsibility. It means there are no consequences for how you lived your life on earth. It means there is no justice.
You see, governments turn on people. They've done it all throughout history. How many times have genocides occurred? How many times have we gone to war?
Christs tells us to love our enemies. If all adhered to the words of Christ, there would be no wars, no anger, no hostility, but only peace and harmony.
However, the flaw in Christianity is that it is only as strong as it's weakest link, which is why it will always be doomed to failure.
So, perhaps soon, after a liquidity crisis causes banks to consolidate, the power structure will be more concentrated. We can only assume that there is an increasing probability that those in power will be less likely to believe in the Christian God and the consequences that come with it. It's easy that way.
So what happens when automation makes 99% of jobs obsolete? Do you believe that the government will provide for its people? Why would it do this? Why would people be altruistic? Why should they be?
Remember, there are no consequences. There is no fundamental justice. Maybe justice is decreasing the population. What a terrible existence and you are all unwittingly contributing to your own demise.
No accountability. What a terrible world that lies ahead.
But to be an atheist, is freedom. No consequences. No justice.
Sigh.
Yet again.
This dogmatic tripe is served up with nary a glance at whether or not this little thing called the real world actually bears out the dogmatic tripe's predictions.
So let's have a look (again, for the umpteenth time).
Q: Which of the four major regions of the United States has the highest rate of religiosity? (we can measure that by professed belief and church attendance)
A: The South
You can make the same comparison between North America (more religious, more violent crime) and Europe (less religious, less violent crime). The same dynamic holds when comparing eastern Europe to western Europe and southern Europe to northern Europe.
I'm sure you can probably find counterexamples as well. But the fact is that your assertion - blithely made without a shred of supporting evidence, which is of course the classic fact-free way that religion and its apologists operate - predicts that we should see a correlation between religiosity and decent behavior.
But we don't.
Because your claims are just empty claims and are not in any way reflective of reality.
If you actually bothered to ponder your claims for even half a moment, it might also occur to you that as the United States has become less religious, it has also become more democratic. It has stopped the practice of slavery. It has enacted child-labor laws and social safety nets to protect the vulnerable and the elderly. It has banned marital rape and Jim Crow. According to your 'logic', those things should have been higher priorities when more Americans cowered in abject fear of divine punishment. But, again, they weren't. Again, for the same reasons.
If I have no consequences for my actions and I am wealthy and powerful, with the ability to dictate the future of populations, why do I need you?
What purpose do you serve? What value do you provide to me?
Why should you live? You take up resources that are mine. You lower my standard of living. You take more than you give.
What is your value?
Or think about it like this. Maybe you give me a great idea that can get both us wealthy beyond our dreams, but instead of working with you, I steal your idea. Why do I care? Who are you? What are the consequences.
You are nothing. I am nothing. We die and we cease to exist.
Nothing matters in this world. It is all about self gratification. Sex, money, power.
This dogmatic tripe is served up with nary a glance at whether or not this little thing called the real world actually bears out the dogmatic tripe's predictions.
So let's have a look (again, for the umpteenth time).
Q: Which of the four major regions of the United States has the highest rate of religiosity? (we can measure that by professed belief and church attendance)
A: The South
You can make the same comparison between North America (more religious, more violent crime) and Europe (less religious, less violent crime). The same dynamic holds when comparing eastern Europe to western Europe and southern Europe to northern Europe.
I'm sure you can probably find counterexamples as well. But the fact is that your assertion - blithely made without a shred of supporting evidence, which is of course the classic fact-free way that religion and its apologists operate - predicts that we should see a correlation between religiosity and decent behavior.
But we don't.
Because your claims are just empty claims and are not in any way reflective of reality.
It's really just common sense. Only an imbecile wouldn't act in their best interest if there is no God and ultimately no consequences.
You are nothing. I am nothing. We die and we cease to exist.
Nothing matters in this world. It is all about self gratification. Sex, money, power.
A common misconception that morality would not exist since there is no god. Morality certainly exists and social interactions actually have physical benefits on us. If tomorrow morning, you realized there was not a God would you rape and pillage?
If you say yes, then I am actually genuinely concerned about you.
All interesting points, but what makes it more interesting is that these points really only make sense through the lens of someone who believes there is an afterlife or a god.
Someone who does believe there's a god might reject christianity because they don't want to part with their wealth - sure. Someone who doesn't believe there is a god would reject Christianity on the grounds that it doesn't make any sense. Their wealth would be irrelevant.
I understand that the "responsibility" and "consequences" and "justice" you refer to are supernatural, afterlife type things. In the society we live in today, there is absolutely personal responsibility and consequences. They're just not divinely inspired.
You are not convincing me
How many wars have been started by Christians? A lot.
Something Steven Weinberg said is:
"[Speaking of religion] With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Conversely that argument works for everything. If good people ran the world it would all be peace and harmony, but unfortunately we're only as strong as our weakest link.
If by automation, you're refering to AGI, then it depends on who gets there first and what their goals are. If their goals are to help humanity, then providing for us will be in the hands of the AGI and not the government.
If the plans are world domination, then you really have no hope anyways.
All in all, keep in mind that some people really truly do not think there is any such thing as a god or an afterlife. Personally, I don't think those concepts make sense.
It's actually rather offensive to argue that they're lying and the true reason is they want to protect their wealth.
How can one be Christian, predicated on the words of Christ if they start a war? That is impossible and contradictory. Christs tells us to love our enemies.
You cannot go to war if you love your enemies. Those that claim to be Christian and go to war are not being Christ-like. They are not real Christians.
And I disagree that we would be doomed if there was a consolidated government as long as those in charge perpetuated Christian fundamentals.
It's just Christianity requires great sacrifice and discipline. This is contrary to our nature which is to be selfish and undisciplined.
It is much easier to believe that there are no consequences in order to relieve personal responsibility. Then you can do whatever you want as long as you can get away with it.
A common misconception that morality would not exist since there is no god. Morality certainly exists and social interactions actually have physical benefits on us. If tomorrow morning, you realized there was not a God would you rape and pillage?
If you say yes, then I am actually genuinely concerned about you.
Of course I would live my life differently. I would live my life much differently. Why would I be disciplined if I didn't have to be?
If things got too difficult I could simply kill myself and cease to exist.
I would take advantage of atheism. Why wouldn't I?
How can one be Christian, predicated on the words of Christ if they start a war? That is impossible and contradictory. Christs tells us to love our enemies.
You cannot go to war if you love your enemies. Those that claim to be Christian and go to war are not being Christ-like. They are not real Christians.
I'm okay with this argument, because I also agree to some extent that it is disingenuous to attribute actions that clearly go against Christian ideals to Christianity.
This also means that you can not attribute "evil" or "psychopathy" or whatever else your trying to attribute to atheism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster
Of course I would live my life differently. I would live my life much differently. Why would I be disciplined if I didn't have to be?
If things got too difficult I could simply kill myself and cease to exist.
I would take advantage of atheism. Why wouldn't I?
So you therefore must agree with the statement that you are good to people because you are afraid of consequences or are seeking personal reward.
Feeling no sense of empathy is actually a mental condition and not at all representative of the general public. If this is truly and sincerely how you feel, then it could be beneficial for you to work with a psychologist to understand why this is.
To some degree, I'm sure you would live your life different. I know I did when I realized there's no such thing as "sexual sin"
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