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And you think WE would be impressed with your little zeitgeist movie clippings?
Get me some actual documentation saying that the Horus myth, or Apollo, or whatever you want to claim ACTUALLY existed prior to the Christian story. You're the one making the assertion, not me.
This is only too common....we see it all the time. People find what they think is the silver bullet to destroy our faith on some lame website, and they copy/paste their "facts" with zero actual fact checking and they are completely surprised when someone can actually counter the argument.
Excuse me? I posted no zeitgeist movie. I posted nothing about Horus. I posted nothing about Apollo. I made no such claim.
Did you see the chart I posted? I'm not disputing that there was a story of Horus. I'm disputing the fact that you allege that the story has all the similarities to Jesus. It doesn't. Not even close.
The chart from a fundamentalist website? LMAO
Even that ridiculous chart acknowledges that Horus was born to a virgin mother and was said to have died and resurrected based on writings from the 1st century BCE. That story sounds pretty close to me, what are you saying is not even close? BTW, BCE=before Christ so your own information clearly indicates that the story of Horus as a god born to a virgin with the power to raise himself from the dead existed at least 100 years before the birth of Jesus.
What exactly are you trying to say, that you acknowledge that Horus was worshipped as a god more than 3000 years before Jesus existed but blah blah blah. There is no question that the Horus god figure existed well before Jesus, actual physical evidence has been found from a span of time stretching over a few thousand years.
I've seen the allegations. I think there is a lot of false info regarding characters like Horus, and the info doesn't match the actual myth. I'm challenging you to provide some actual documentation showing that the myth existed prior to Jesus. Can you do do that? Or did you just see this on some atheist website so you decided to bring it here, hoping to shatter our world?
Well, the myths come from finds in Egypt. And even the piccie I posted showing how much like virgin and child the Ptolemaic Isis and Horus look. They are all pre Jesus. Both Mary and Isis were called 'Star of the sea' by the way. How much pre Jesus evidence do you need before you concede that there may be something in SOME of the Jesus story being borrowed? I don't say all of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I've seen the allegations. I think there is a lot of false info regarding characters like Horus, and the info doesn't match the actual myth. I'm challenging you to provide some actual documentation showing that the myth existed prior to Jesus. Can you do do that? Or did you just see this on some atheist website so you decided to bring it here, hoping to shatter our world?
So what if we did get it from some atheists website. So what if we wwere hoping to break your faith? Would that make it untrue?
In fact we are rather defending our right to NOT accept your religion and give some good reasons why we don't. If you people didn't keep insisting the Gospel Jesus is reliable as a true story, we wouldn't need to keep producing evidence that it isn't. Not that any amount of evidence would even be enough to convince you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Honestly? I don't much expect to convert you. But I am here to defend the faith against the likes of you spouting lies about it. I've gotten PMs from people that thank me for answering the objections. It's not difficult to see right through you.
Well I have had various messages giving a thumbs up for destroying some warrior for Christ's argument. So what? I have also seen people posting thumbs -up and giving reps for anyone making the noises they agree with. That means nothing.
I'll tell you what though. While I recalled about Osiris being cut ino pieces and reassembled by Isis who then conceived Horus by the corpse, and I am sticking by the evidential link isis to Mary, the claims about 25th december, cave and wise men and so on strike me as odd because I heard those claims made about Mithras. And I don't recall them in the Horus story at all.
And i don't recall anything much in the Apollo story that resembles the Jesus story. Apart from the Isis -Mary connection, I've never really been too convinced by this close resemblance. I remember seeing a vid of a Christian who deconverted because the Jesus story was in so many previous myths and legends. I was surprised because I never noticed that when I was reading.
Can anyone actually produce some New Kingdom papyrus or Ptolemaic inscription that has Horus with 12 disciples. I'd never heard that one before. Anyone have a source? I'm going to check the Man in the hat,.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-15-2017 at 09:51 PM..
Listen up folks. I can find no basis for either Mithras or Horus having in their myth or story anything much like Jesus had.
Mithras has some links in a heavenly banquet with Sol Invictus whose festival is 25th December. I would bet that was hijacked (1) as the birth of Jesus so that Christianity could supplant Mithraism, but that's about it.
I would also bet that a Romanized Isis and Horus became adopted for virgin and child, but that's about it for Horus, too.
Go and look for yourselves, but if you can find any basis for those claims about 12 disciples or dying on a cross, I will be surprised.
(1) probably by Constantine who was more a devotee of Sol Invictus than he was of Jesus.
Listen up folks. I can find no basis for either Mithras or Horus having in their myth or story anything much like Jesus had.
Mithras has some links in a heavenly banquet with Sol Invictus whose festival is 25th December. I would bet that was hijacked (1) as the birth of Jesus so that Christianity could supplant Mithraism, but that's about it.
I would also bet that a Romanized Isis and Horus became adopted for virgin and child, but that's about it for Horus, too.
Go and look for yourselves, but if you can find any basis for those claims about 12 disciples or dying on a cross, I will be surprised.
(1) probably by Constantine who was more a devotee of Sol Invictus than he was of Jesus.
You are looking at the issue of syncretism as if it is plagiarism. It is not. It is the evolution that applies to what Dawkins called memes. The significant point to note is that many early myths and legends involve the generic theme of the birth, adventures, death, and resurrection of a young man representing the sun, life or light. The recurrence of the theme in increasingly evolved forms in various cultures and generations is merely an indication to me that there is a consistent "cognitive blueprint" for the evolution of our spiritual understanding influenced by the consciousness of God within which our consciousness resides. Given the commonality of the legends about Jesus to the blueprint, as well as, His incredibly accurate fulfillment to this day of prophecies written eight or more centuries before His birth, the blueprint is supported well beyond mere validity, IMO.
As regards the Mithras similarities, there are many, as long as you realize that it evolved from even more primitive versions. The earlier Mithras myth is at a more primitive level of symbolism - what we call a more concrete level of cognition - whereas the Jesus version is a more evolved and abstract level of cognition. Where Mithras conquers a Bull, Jesus conquers His animal nature, Mithras was born of a virgin in the presence of only a few shepherds, and so on. Gerald Berry points out many other similarities:
Since Mithras was a sun-god, Sunday was automatically sacred to him - the "Lord's Day" - Long before Christ. On December 25th, just after the winter solstice, there were elaborate rituals and celebrations. Bells were rung, hymns were sung, candles lit, gifts given, sacraments of bread and water administered to the initiate. Between December 25th and the spring equinox (Easter, from Eastra, the Latin form of Astarte) come the mystical forty days' search for Osiris which was later the origin for Christian Lent. On Black Friday (c.f. Good Friday) the taurobolium, or bull-slaying was represented. Mithras, worn out by the battle, was symbolically represented by a stone image lain on a bier as a corpse. He was mourned for in liturgy, and placed in a sacred rock tomb called 'Petra,' from which he was removed after three days in a great festival of rejoicing.
Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'The Way,' 'The Truth,' 'The Life,' 'The Word,' 'The Son of God,' 'The Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother Isis was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church. (c.f. the New Testament, Matt 16:18 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.') The robe of Mithras, absorbed from the older Osiris cult, was always described as in one piece representing universal light, and may be the source for the seamless robe of Christ worn at the Crucifixion.
I realize that your concrete mind also is trapped in a chronological paradigm as regards any evolution, but that is NOT how evolution works. The most evolved meme is NOT determined by its chronological appearance but by its superiority over the more primitive versions.
It was either Emerson (or Thoreau) who made a connection between Jesus and Apollo. He was actually banned from visiting his Ivy League college for doing so, for several decades. When I read that several years ago, I remember immediately looking at the story of Apollo and immediately seeing similarities.
I guess you would have to be more familiar with the gospels to see it though.
It was either Emerson (or Thoreau) who made a connection between Jesus and Apollo. He was actually banned from visiting his Ivy League college for doing so, for several decades. When I read that several years ago, I remember immediately looking at the story of Apollo and immediately seeing similarities.
I guess you would have to be more familiar with the gospels to see it though.
you mean one group of humans came up with a similar story about a superman in their own own ranks? and then another group of people banned a person that pointed that "we" aren't so different from them?
Anyone (theist or atheist) who denies the similarities between the stories of Jesus and other pagan gods is seriously either in serious denial, or is just plain lazy.
CS Lewis famously wrote about this. He said that the Jesus story was the "true myth" that clarified all the previous ones.
The early church fathers took the stance that the earlier pagan stories had been inspired by Satan. Why? Because Satan obviously knew everything that was going to happen in the future, so he inspired the stories centuries in the past in order to "fool" the people. That remains the official Christian stand on this phenomenon.
I realize that your concrete mind also is trapped in a chronological paradigm as regards any evolution, but that is NOT how evolution works. The most evolved meme is NOT determined by its chronological appearance but by its superiority over the more primitive versions.
milli/fundy mental think. their intent is not healing, learning, and helping. They use these as tools, like any religious person to motivate others into acting poorly. Unfortunately the true intentions don't show up till after the killing starts.
arg is a little different, he openly admits his blind faith statement is "Some feel religion is so dangerous that I am justified in doing whatever I deem worthy to stop it, no matter what."
lucky for us, many milli/fundy mentals expose themselves and come up small. I just don't understand why people side with them just because because they wear the same colored t-shirts with "A" or "My God" on them.
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whereas the Jesus version is a more evolved and abstract level of cognition. Where Mithras conquers a Bull, Jesus conquers His animal nature, Mithras was born of a virgin in the presence of only a few shepherds, and so on. Gerald Berry points out many other similarities:
