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Its a big deal pel because we, I am kind of with him here, that the process of forming a belief is at the core of forming good foundations for reasonable core beliefs.
what is this "life" and what is "materialism" to you?
Hey AA, no time to give more than a perfunctory response right now...
Googled def of materialism is “the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.” Life is what animates.
More and more, I think a reason we don't understand one another too well is because we are using the same words but with different definitions; ...
That'll happen, all the time. People will make the mistake of letting the labels dictate the meaning rather than ask what is meant, and maybe even find a better label. Like for instance "Agnostics! are so often found to be non -religious theists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
If God is defined as "love and life," then one can believe in God so defined and be a materialist as well given this definition of materialism, "the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."
We all know love and life exists in any case, so how is materialism in conflict with this notion about God? Or just what am I missing here?
If one defines God as "The opinions and views of Richard Dawkins", one can be an atheist and believe in "God".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Sigh. Why is this such a big deal to you? I believe there is more than materialsm. I don't think that matter created life, but that life created matter in some way. But, AGAIN, the only reason I responded to you was to say that something I considered to be not just a, but THE core belief, that I held, changed later in my life. That's it. I was in no way trying to shoot down your "cement" theory, or whatever. Just sharing my experience. If that experience doesn't count to you, then just ignore it.
I don't see any reason to 'believe' any of those claims. Is there any scientifically validated support for them, or are they just hypotheses that you have invested belief in?
That's not to say that it couldn't be true, but we don't know, and the logic is that although you can believe whatever you like, putting the claim out in public is inviting critique, and the critique is that what is unknown vet possible, and unproven but undisproven is an Unknown, no matter how much one may happen to believe it.
And assuming an unknown to be true until proven false is the fallacy that buggers all Theistic thought from the start, and indeed and cult -think or pseudo -science beliefs.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-06-2018 at 02:30 AM..
Reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Pleasantville. Came along at a time in my life when its message was very clear and helped me move forward.
Just catching up on this thread now. I disagree completely with those who say our personalities/beliefs/whatevers don't change after about the age of 12. All of those things changed for me, especially in my early 40s.
Was never exactly fundie, even though I grew up in a Calvinistic, fundie church. Thank God for my logical, intelligent, engineer father who was permanently disfigured by war and maybe had a different perspective of life from the others in that narrow-minded environment.
I'm rather persuaded by the view that basic personality is cemented in by age 6. But there's still and awful lot of worldview and core beliefs that can change before you withdraw your savings. I know, because I've changed quite a few views and if I haven't changed my atheist views it is because the more I have seen the arguments, the better the case looks for atheism.
I don't see any reason to 'believe' any of those claims. Is there any scientifically validated support for them, or are they just hypotheses that you have invested belief in?
That's not to say that it couldn't be true, but we don't know, and the logic is that although you can believe whatever you like, putting the claim out in public is inviting critique, and the critique is that what is unknown vet possible, and unproven but undisproven is an Unknown, no matter how much one may happen to believe it.
And assuming an unknown to be true until proven false is the fallacy that buggers all Theistic thought from the start, and indeed and cult -think or pseudo -science beliefs.
“All those claims”? You mean the 2 things I mentioned? That there is more than materialism and that I don’t think that matter created life? Tell me, has it been proven that matter did? I hadn’t heard that.
Reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Pleasantville. Came along at a time in my life when its message was very clear and helped me move forward.
Just catching up on this thread now. I disagree completely with those who say our personalities/beliefs/whatevers don't change after about the age of 12. All of those things changed for me, especially in my early 40s.
Was never exactly fundie, even though I grew up in a Calvinistic, fundie church. Thank God for my logical, intelligent, engineer father who was permanently disfigured by war and maybe had a different perspective of life from the others in that narrow-minded environment.
When Pleasantville came out it was against my fundamentalist sensibilities to see it. So, I didn’t watch it until I was on my way to being a heathen. I completely understand what you’re saying.
...That's not to say that it couldn't be true, but we don't know, and the logic is that although you can believe whatever you like, putting the claim out in public is inviting critique, ....
Here is what is interesting to me about your and Learn's need to critique what I said ... Follow the discussion, and note that I was not the one who offered my beliefs up to the "public" as some sort of mandate that this is what I believe and so everyone else must too. I simply said that my core beliefs had changed, period. Learn wanted me to share more and I was hesitant, because I don't feel it is my place to try to convince anyone that God exists. I understand some of the things that lead atheists to the conclusion they have reached, and I don't have an issue with it. (If I did, my 12 year old decidedly atheist daughter and I would probably be butting heads on the subject, but we don't.)
At any rate, here we go:
Harry said that he had changed his core beliefs. I responded:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Me too, in my 40s.
Learn responded to me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
You too please. Do provide an example or two and explain WHY you changed your core belief(s). Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Keeping it short, I was a Christian (mainstream very conservative denomination) and my beliefs were the foundation of my life. In other words, there was nothing “in name only” about me. I am no longer a Christian. My participation on various discussion forums over a period of about 4 years was what got the wheels turning and eventually showed me the light.
You'll note, now, that I said nothing about my beliefs beyond the fact that I'm no longer a Christian. Learn, however, expressed a desire to know more about my beliefs:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Do you still believe in God? If not still a Christian, what? Please explain what sort of comments or argument caused you to change your belief over these four years. If you are one of the exceptions to the rule, of most interest to me is WHY you changed your core belief(s)...
And I did explain, out of courtesy. Now, you're right, posting in a public forum makes it open season and anyone should feel free to respond however they wish. And that means I'm allowed to ask why on earth he (or you, for that matter) wanted to argue about what I believe, given that the point of the discussion was intended to be about changing beliefs, whatever they are.
“All those claims”? You mean the 2 things I mentioned? That there is more than materialism and that I don’t think that matter created life? Tell me, has it been proven that matter did? I hadn’t heard that.
Life is just a sub set of chemistry, which is just physics in action. And physics deals with material things (including energy).
So unless you can prove matter did NOT create life, everything either appears to be down to materialism of some sort or we we are ignorant of some things.
Life is just a sub set of chemistry, which is just physics in action. And physics deals with material things (including energy).
So unless you can prove matter did NOT create life, everything either appears to be down to materialism of some sort or we we are ignorant of some things.
And unless scientists become open to the idea that there is more than materialism, they'll never be interested in proving otherwise. Which, I'm fine with ... I don't need a scientist to prove to me that there is more than materialism, anymore than I feel the need to prove to anyone that there is more. Different strokes.
Maybe they are open, but have just failed to find evidence for this other.
Maybe. I've never seen a scientist express that openness, but that'd be cool if they are and it would be interesting to know how they've gone about trying to test that hypothesis. In the meantime, if they have tried and failed to date, that isn't conclusive, certainly. It seems to my non-scientific self that proving something beyond materialism from within our material perspective might be quite a conundrum.
For all the lip service some people give to being okay with a stance of "we don't know", why do some atheists seem intent on insisting that everyone has to accept a default position of materialism?
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