Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As a Gentile, meaning a non-Jew, I have not been chosen or given a law or specific location on planet earth to call my own. In that respect, I represent what the rest of humanity is in the world.
The only thing the Gentiles have in common with the Jews is a conscience towards a known God (Jewish God) to the Jews and an unknown god (Trees, Sun, Moon, god of the harvest…. the list goes on) to the Gentiles.
The Jews needed a sign to believe where as the Gentiles need none. Why such a disparity? I mean ……aren’t we all human beings with intelligence? Made of the same lump of clay…. earth?
Unless, as the saying goes… “To whom much is given, much is required”, is a key to the answer to the disparity.
So, for a Gentile who has no known god has no science proving there is a God. So, what if, a Gentile decides to look into the Jewish Gods claim of authenticity?
How can a Gentile accept such a claim that science can not otherwise prove the existence of a god?
Does a Gentile need a sign? NO! But, by the mere facts of things already existing in this world, by the intelligent design of not only the things on earth but also the organized, methodical, operation of the cosmos. I.e. The undying Sun by day, the guiding light , Moon, by night, the stars for navigation… the list goes on.
Surely… there must be a God. (Note: special emphasis on upper case letters to lower case letters in this post)
Since Science can not prove there is a God, we must conclude than (by common reasoning) that there must be something to the Jewish God that may hold the answer to our querying.
After all, we have a story of human beginnings, human behavioral limits all because there was A GOD that created it all. Now, that makes sense to me, a Gentile, so I’m interested.
I learn somethings that if I decide to believe in the Jewish God I have to accept it by faith and not by sign.
I also find that I, a Gentile without a known god, can know of a known God simply and only by faith alone. That to me would be a gift, free from any ties that Binds my curiosity to the unknown gods, that would otherwise, hold me in prison of an unanswerable QUERY.
So again, if I choose, by faith alone, to believe in the Jewish Messiah claims of my being accepted into the Jewish Gods Kingdom in the afterlife…. that would be a first.
So, the saying now make sense, even though it may have a wide range of applications, but in my case it is that “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”.
Makes sense that can easily be accepted. I , not being chosen (like the Jews) am first to believe in the Jewish Gods Messiah for their God promising me, not only an explanation of my beginnings, the reasons for my fallen state, but more like…. Tank you Jesus for rescuing me. (Hope restored)
Second place goes to the chosen for yet, to this day, need a sign in order to exercise faith in their Messiah as their true God.
Again, common sense tells me that their plight is my salvation therefore, they too will, by their own destiny become like as I am, saved by faith alone and not by all the required practices.
I believe, that for simplicity, that God, worked it all out for all our benefits, but each in its due time.
What does all this do to all the worlds religions and to those who refuse to believe in God?
Very simple……. Love! If, you love your neighbor you will love God. If you love God you will love your neighbor regardless of any stated religious (Religions) or none religious beliefs.
There would be no wars if, love was exercised, no killings, murders, stealing’s, hatred, greediness but purely giving of oneself, sharing ones possessions because it would be a God kind of love.
So, there neighbor, what have you to say bout that?
Those of us in "the middle" need to continuously communicate with each other. With, what you pointed too, common sense. Its actually what martin luther meant.
As a Gentile, meaning a non-Jew, I have not been chosen or given a law or specific location on planet earth to call my own. In that respect, I represent what the rest of humanity is in the world.
The only thing the Gentiles have in common with the Jews is a conscience towards a known God (Jewish God) to the Jews and an unknown god (Trees, Sun, Moon, god of the harvest…. the list goes on) to the Gentiles.
The Jews needed a sign to believe where as the Gentiles need none. Why such a disparity? I mean ……aren’t we all human beings with intelligence? Made of the same lump of clay…. earth?
Unless, as the saying goes… “To whom much is given, much is required”, is a key to the answer to the disparity.
So, for a Gentile who has no known god has no science proving there is a God. So, what if, a Gentile decides to look into the Jewish Gods claim of authenticity?
How can a Gentile accept such a claim that science can not otherwise prove the existence of a god?
Does a Gentile need a sign? NO! But, by the mere facts of things already existing in this world, by the intelligent design of not only the things on earth but also the organized, methodical, operation of the cosmos. I.e. The undying Sun by day, the guiding light , Moon, by night, the stars for navigation… the list goes on.
Surely… there must be a God. (Note: special emphasis on upper case letters to lower case letters in this post)
Since Science can not prove there is a God, we must conclude than (by common reasoning) that there must be something to the Jewish God that may hold the answer to our querying.
After all, we have a story of human beginnings, human behavioral limits all because there was A GOD that created it all. Now, that makes sense to me, a Gentile, so I’m interested.
I learn somethings that if I decide to believe in the Jewish God I have to accept it by faith and not by sign.
I also find that I, a Gentile without a known god, can know of a known God simply and only by faith alone. That to me would be a gift, free from any ties that Binds my curiosity to the unknown gods, that would otherwise, hold me in prison of an unanswerable QUERY.
So again, if I choose, by faith alone, to believe in the Jewish Messiah claims of my being accepted into the Jewish Gods Kingdom in the afterlife…. that would be a first.
So, the saying now make sense, even though it may have a wide range of applications, but in my case it is that “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”.
Makes sense that can easily be accepted. I , not being chosen (like the Jews) am first to believe in the Jewish Gods Messiah for their God promising me, not only an explanation of my beginnings, the reasons for my fallen state, but more like…. Tank you Jesus for rescuing me. (Hope restored)
Second place goes to the chosen for yet, to this day, need a sign in order to exercise faith in their Messiah as their true God.
Again, common sense tells me that their plight is my salvation therefore, they too will, by their own destiny become like as I am, saved by faith alone and not by all the required practices.
I believe, that for simplicity, that God, worked it all out for all our benefits, but each in its due time.
What does all this do to all the worlds religions and to those who refuse to believe in God?
Very simple……. Love! If, you love your neighbor you will love God. If you love God you will love your neighbor regardless of any stated religious (Religions) or none religious beliefs.
There would be no wars if, love was exercised, no killings, murders, stealing’s, hatred, greediness but purely giving of oneself, sharing ones possessions because it would be a God kind of love.
So, there neighbor, what have you to say bout that?
Blessings, AJ
What does your "common sense" tell you about an entire mankind that existed BEFORE Moses and BEFORE Judaism?
If there was a God (A Jewish God) who started it all by making humans from clay, then why he created MILLIONS of humans before the arrival of Moses and Jews on the scene? Are these poor souls will end up in hell because they are not Jewish? Doesn't seem like they were given any chance - doesn't seem like a just God to me.
For your second part:
War, greed, killing stealing, and hatred, love, care etc would have ALL existed whether there was a religion or not because THATS HUMAN NATURE!
Those of us in "the middle" need to continuously communicate with each other. With, what you pointed too, common sense. Its actually what martin luther meant.
True. Why suppose the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a symbol of testing?
Common sense is our saving grace.....that is if we use it right.
What does your "common sense" tell you about an entire mankind that existed BEFORE Moses and BEFORE Judaism?
If there was a God (A Jewish God) who started it all by making humans from clay, then why he created MILLIONS of humans before the arrival of Moses and Jews on the scene? Are these poor souls will end up in hell because they are not Jewish? Doesn't seem like they were given any chance - doesn't seem like a just God to me.
For your second part:
War, greed, killing stealing, and hatred, love, care etc would have ALL existed whether there was a religion or not because THATS HUMAN NATURE!
Testing was from the get go. Godly conscience was the application.
The law was not instituted till Moses.
The law was instituted to add degree to trespasses of the low.
Purposely so because all humanity would be concluded as under sin.
And without hope necessitating an outside intervention..
Enter.......Jesus. The outside source, as God of the Jews, delivered to the Jews for the express purpose of delivering mankind from it's delemma.
One would have to have some knowledge of Jesus'works to understand the plight of all those who lived and died before Jesus.
Perhaps a topic on that discussion on another thread.
Testing was from the get go. Godly conscience was the application.
The law was not instituted till Moses.
The law was instituted to add degree to trespasses of the low.
Purposely so because all humanity would be concluded as under sin.
And without hope necessitating an outside intervention..
Enter.......Jesus. The outside source, as God of the Jews, delivered to the Jews for the express purpose of delivering mankind from it's delemma.
One would have to have some knowledge of Jesus'works to understand the plight of all those who lived and died before Jesus.
Perhaps a topic on that discussion on another thread.
Blessings,AJ
So there was "no law" before Moses or Jesus? No holy book? Nothing?
What were Abraham and many other prophets doing on earth then?
I am not a gentile or a child of Israel , as the spirit of the living God through the living redeemer Jesus Christ abides on my spirit , and through this He made here a whole person which God meant for all people ....... Everybody can be made complete through His grace , which would be common sense to achieve
So there was "no law" before Moses or Jesus? No holy book? Nothing?
What were Abraham and many other prophets doing on earth then?
No written law like as in stone tablets but pretty much in ones conscience.
In the story of Adam and Eve we find Cain being jealous of Abel because of his sacrifice not being accepted.
There was no written law, yet Cain understood evil after he killed his brother Abel. He was convicted by his own conscience.
Abraham on the other hand was a Hebrew who had a calling to go to another land. In this calling a promise was made to him and so he obeyed by faith.
There was no written laws.....yet he obeyed his conscience and acted on it.
Abraham was the beginnings of the Jewish God intervention into human history with a promise.
That promise was with a looking forward to the day of fruition.
Prophets were used as Gods spokesman to guide, to warn and to prophecy of future events.
All adding up to a selection of people and presentation of the law as given to Moses.
If, we look at the beginning of humanity through the Jewish eyes and their story line we see the stage being set for a pivotal change to the dreaded stated penalty of eternal death to all humanity.
It only makes sense that a God who created man after His own image would, in the process of doing so, find that the independent will of that soul, placed in an environment of testing, would become would find itself at odds with the creator.
Much like, if we created a robot and gave it the same ability of reason because of intelligence, would not necessarily do exactly the same as us because the robot now has its independence apart from us.
A will to do whatever it desires, placed in an environment, that caters strictly to its desires. The robot then becomes its own god with limited powers. But technically, with a conscience as a guide.
How then would we rescue this robot, limited in power, destined for destruction because of its independence from its creators?
We, the creators would have to , with full power capabilities, become as one of the robots and perform a rescue of all robots from the death penalty imposed not by our created will but because of the consequence of our creation.
Not sure if I paralleled the story of Adam and Eve and their redemption. But hope you all get the gist of it.
We seem to have drifted off the topic from what is essentially the 'watchmaker' argument, which has long been refuted) common sense (Aka imperfect human understanding) can indeed lead to the supposition that Somebody must have done it al. Science shows us that this is a human lack of understanding about the nature of the universe.
Now we are getting onto a discussion about God's Plan which does make sense.
given that:
(a) God wants humans to be with Him in heaven
(b) given that he wants them to have free Will and mot be mindless robots, he knew they were going to Sin.
(c) as you point (and Paul) point out, first innate knowledge of morality was given (though oddly the Eden story suggests that God didn't want us to have it) and the Law was given to get humans to act correctly.
(d) Christian theology argues that this wasn't working (as though God didn't know that it wouldn't) and Jesus was sent to release humans from Sin.
Now riddle me this: any idea that believing in Jesus makes people do no sin is plainly false and I gather that the idea is that Jesus allows God to forgive.
Thus believers get into heaven, not as sinless, in themselves, but as forgiven sinners. I see only two option: either believers get into heaven with sinful minds, which are nevertheless 'forgiven' (the idea that forgiveness and repentance makes them Sinless in plainly not 'common sense') or
humans that believe are somehow transformed mentally so they do become sinless through Faith in Jesus, before being fit for heaven.
In either case, if that is a result that makes human sinless without abrogating their free will, why couldn't God have done that in the first place?
Cue "It may not make sense to us, but it makes sense to God; he knows what he is doing".
But this is why I look at it and say: "This does not make sense". To believer it (other than not using sense at all, but just Faith) common sense does not lead to belief in God and any Plan of his. Believe it on Faith is you must, but don't claim it makes sense.
We seem to have drifted off the topic from what is essentially the 'watchmaker' argument, which has long been refuted) common sense (Aka imperfect human understanding) can indeed lead to the supposition that Somebody must have done it al. Science shows us that this is a human lack of understanding about the nature of the universe.
Now we are getting onto a discussion about God's Plan which does make sense.
given that:
(a) God wants humans to be with Him in heaven
(b) given that he wants them to have free Will and mot be mindless robots, he knew they were going to Sin.
(c) as you point (and Paul) point out, first innate knowledge of morality was given (though oddly the Eden story suggests that God didn't want us to have it) and the Law was given to get humans to act correctly.
(d) Christian theology argues that this wasn't working (as though God didn't know that it wouldn't) and Jesus was sent to release humans from Sin.
Now riddle me this: any idea that believing in Jesus makes people do no sin is plainly false and I gather that the idea is that Jesus allows God to forgive.
Thus believers get into heaven, not as sinless, in themselves, but as forgiven sinners. I see only two option: either believers get into heaven with sinful minds, which are nevertheless 'forgiven' (the idea that forgiveness and repentance makes them Sinless in plainly not 'common sense') or
humans that believe are somehow transformed mentally so they do become sinless through Faith in Jesus, before being fit for heaven.
In either case, if that is a result that makes human sinless without abrogating their free will, why couldn't God have done that in the first place?
Cue "It may not make sense to us, but it makes sense to God; he knows what he is doing".
But this is why I look at it and say: "This does not make sense". To believer it (other than not using sense at all, but just Faith) common sense does not lead to belief in God and any Plan of his. Believe it on Faith is you must, but don't claim it makes sense.
Gots to give it a reputation.
If God wants something to happen - and it doesn't happen as per his plan, then, is he even God?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
