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On the Christian forum someone pointed out how we (atheist/agnostics) use circular reasoning. I didn't get an answer plus it's off topic on that thread. I don't get how I am doing that and sometimes I need my cognitive errors pointed out to me...............So, please explain.
It wasn't in response to any line of reasoning I had put forth. He said he wouldn't have known about God without the Bible and I brought up circular reasoning first. I was just wondering what that meant. Growing up as I did I know I need a lot of work on my reasoning skills and am always on the lookout to improve them.
It wasn't in response to any line of reasoning I had put forth. He said he wouldn't have known about God without the Bible and I brought up circular reasoning first. I was just wondering what that meant. Growing up as I did I know I need a lot of work on my reasoning skills and am always on the lookout to improve them.
Sadly, such awareness and improvement is something not a lot of people practice. Thanks for the link, I will check it out.
It wasn't in response to any line of reasoning I had put forth. He said he wouldn't have known about God without the Bible and I brought up circular reasoning first. I was just wondering what that meant. Growing up as I did I know I need a lot of work on my reasoning skills and am always on the lookout to improve them.
TS. Say no more. TS just makes up excuses when presented with evidence they don't not like. TS is so irrational they once argued either facts are lies, or that Christianity is based on a lie (depending on who TS was accusing of being dishonest).
The Bible is the only reason you believe in God? Isn't God the only reason you believe in the Bible? I'm sensing a loop here. So if there was no Bible what would you believe in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
probably in the circular reasoning of atheism \ agnosticism that lead to humanity being so evil that God regretted ever creating such and so started over with Noah & family.
You ought to recognize the time of grace in which time of history you live that affords you the opportunity God is extending for you to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
You deflected instead of answering the question but it worked. I'm curious what part of atheism/agnosticism you find is employing circular reasoning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Deflected nothing .... you asked what .... I answered: "probably in the circular reasoning of atheism \ agnosticism that lead to humanity being so evil that God regretted ever creating such and so started over with Noah & family."
Why are you curious as to what part I find?
I'm not the one who will be taken surprised when the door is shut by God unannounced. Unlike those folks who had no Bible at their disposal to break their circular reasoning .... you .... do.
Rather, it is I who is going to be curious what circular reasoning excuses atheists \ agnostics will use to justify their atheism \ agnosticism despite being fortunate in this age of ease of accessibility to the Word, when God shuts the door to the time of grace to repent as Jesus said will happen at end of life or world's end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
Ok yeah, you're right, you did answer. I'm curious because I'm not particularly good at seeing the flaws in my reasoning. If you are saying you see the circularness of my conclusions I'm willing to listen to you point them out. Anyone who thinks atheism/agnostic has circular logic is welcome to respond.
Basically, it looks like they are saying "I know you are but what am I" and that without the horrendous practice of Bibliolatry, they would succumb to the stories portrayed in the chosen Biblilolatry about unruly disbelievers needing to be murdered in mass divine genocide (rather than lovingly changed or educated).
However, the biblical stories don't say that these people were philosophers nor that they were atheists/agnostics. Nor does it say that the character called Yahweh is a moody idiot that is graceful sometimes and not others. Its also weird (like Muslim and pagan beliefs) that it says Yahweh is full of jealousy and shame, just like only his supposed demon (fallible angels) children/creations (which he supposedly still controls) should be.
If there were supposedly demons in existence at that time, the demons might have wanted worship (being jealous beings just like their ultimate Creator), so then they could all have been polytheists rather than disrespecting demons by not believing in them (since it is supposedly a disrespect to not believe in a Creator God). Or like my fundamentalist teachers interpreted back in the day, these genocidally drowned people weren't human, they were mostly mixed-blood with the fallen angels (Nephilim).
But you are right, whatever "circular reasoning of atheism/agnosticism" is meant to be implied, it is clouded by all the interjection of the seemingly hypnotic indoctrinated mythology and ingroup tribalist wrath that doesn't allow them to have empathy for those good people who are not the cronies of their imagined leader.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 03-11-2018 at 11:26 AM..
On the Christian forum someone pointed out how we (atheist/agnostics) use circular reasoning. I didn't get an answer plus it's off topic on that thread. I don't get how I am doing that and sometimes I need my cognitive errors pointed out to me...............So, please explain.
Each individual accusation of circular reasoning has to be set out, but the basic accusation generally seems to be that atheists/materialist -skeptics are assuming the validity of scientific evidence and logical reasoning as a given. This is behind all of the 'Atheists have faith, too' arguments. It is a long -standing and persistent piece of wrongheadedness exhibited by pretty much all theist apologists from a catholic bod (long gone or name changed) that I debated with when i arrived here, to Mystic here with his rejection of materialist explanations.
They put it on a 'Believe or not' basis: a Faith basis, and don't seem to be able to credit the varying weight of evidence, validated by results, really. Evidence to them is whatever supports the faith, even if it is wrong evidence. This puzzled me until I realised they are operating on faith and evidence only serves the purpose of persuading people, and it doesn't matter whether it's true or not.
This is why they will use science at one time and then dismiss it later on. It is why all the findings on human evolution are dismissed, but hominid origins in Africa are cited as true without question if it mentions mitochondral Eve. It is also why Josephus was rejected as 'all over the map' at one time and cited a utterly reliable by the same person - depending on whether he was being used for the bible or against.
It's why no evidence, scientific, historical or logical counts for anything if it contradicts Holy Writ, but science even if it is demonstrably misunderstood or misrepresented is treated as Gospel truth - if it supports the Faith.
Atheists on the other hand go on the evidence, even if there is a lot of initial buy -into atheism and some bias. The faith -based mindset explains why they appeal to gaps for God, the water -muddying of Quantum -woo, the 'How do we know what we know' polemic package and the regular questioning of the validity of human knowledge.
It comes down to making us wonder whether 'everything we though we knew is wrong' which is also why Alien technology arguments (which are nothing to do with Bible truth) are used by Creationists at times (old Eusebius, in fact) as part of the 'you see? science can't explain that, so everything it claims to know is wrong'. It's why they can't understand that science always willing to 'change its' mind' makes it stronger and more reliable, and a refusal to admit ever being wrong (while quietly shifting to the latest finding of science) does not make dogmatic claims better. They really don't get this.
It's why they can't understand that 'We don't know yet, and maybe never will' is a valid answer and is the right one. "God mustha dunnit" isn't.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-11-2018 at 02:25 PM..
Each individual accusation of circular reasoning has to be set out, but the basic accusation generally seems to be that atheists/materialist -skeptics are assuming the validity of scientific evidence and logical reasoning as a given. This is behind all of the 'Atheists have faith, too' arguments. It is a long -standing and persistent piece of wrongheadedness exhibited by pretty much all theist apologists from a catholic bod (long gone or name changed) that I debated with when i arrived here, to Mystic here with his rejection of materialist explanations.
They put it on a 'Believe or not' basis: a Faith basis, and don't seem to be able to credit the varying weight of evidence, validated by results, really. Evidence to them is whatever supports the faith, even if it is wrong evidence. This puzzled me until I realised they are operating on faith and evidence only serves the purpose of persuading people, and it doesn't matter whether it's true or not.
This is why they will use science at one time and then dismiss it later on. It is why all the findings on human evolution are dismissed, but hominid origins in Africa are cited as true without question if it mentions mitochondral Eve. It is also why Josephus was rejected as 'all over the map' at one time and cited a utterly reliable by the same person - depending on whether he was being used for the bible or against.
It's why no evidence, scientific, historical or logical counts for anything if it contradicts Holy Writ, but science even if it is demonstrably misunderstood or misrepresented is treated as Gospel truth - if it supports the Faith.
Atheists on the other hand go on the evidence, even if there is a lot of initial buy -into atheism and some bias. The faith -based mindset explains why they appeal to gaps for God, the water -muddying of Quantum -woo, the 'How do we know what we know' polemic package and the regular questioning of the validity of human knowledge.
It comes down to making us wonder whether 'everything we though we knew is wrong' which is also why Alien technology arguments (which are nothing to do with Bible truth) are used by Creationists at times (old Eusebius, in fact) as part of the 'you see? science can't explain that, so everything it claims to know is wrong'. It's why they can't understand that science always willing to 'change its' mind' makes it stronger and more reliable, and a refusal to admit ever being wrong (while quietly shifting to the latest finding of science) does not make dogmatic claims better. They really don't get this.
It's why they can't understand that 'We don't know yet, and maybe never will' is a valid answer and is the right one. "God mustha dunnit" isn't.
I guess that could be construed as circular reasoning. I do assume there is a logical explanation for things even if I don't know what it is. So they got me on that one. I didn't start with the conclusion that there must be a logical explanation though. I think that because there has always turned out to be one.
Edit: that last line in bold is also a difference I've noticed in some religious people. I seem to be more comfortable with ambiguity and maybe a bit less curious.
We don't know yet and maybe never will thankfully allows the slim possibility that we will know all things. And if we are the manifestation and expression of the one Father of Life, and that life is flowing through everything, then it's not so hard to say God mustha' done it.
On the Christian forum someone pointed out how we (atheist/agnostics) use circular reasoning. I didn't get an answer plus it's off topic on that thread. I don't get how I am doing that and sometimes I need my cognitive errors pointed out to me...............So, please explain.
I would say that circular reasoning is better than no reasoning at all!
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