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Navigating along the spiritual journey, I've come to really enjoy perspectives that contrast those I was taught growing up. This video in particular was insightful, and I've found value in the common sense delivery of Sam Harris. I'm currently using his 'Waking Up' meditation app, which is one of the best I've experienced.
The more I would read the Bible, the more I struggled with the sheer brutality of the Old Testament. Of course there's been scholarly debate over what exactly Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17 (touched on here too at 2:10 in the video). I've found it ironic that many churches teach they're no longer under Mosaic Law, yet still cling so tightly to the ten commandments. Why not cling to the other, less flattering Old Testament directives too? Perhaps some food for thought for curious minds.
The more I would read the Bible, the more I struggled with the sheer brutality of the Old Testament.
Yeah, and that's why there is the contrast between the old covenant (Judaism, for the few) and the new (Christianity, for all).
God knew it was time for a huge change. He "got it" (all the brutality yes, sacrifices, slaughtering of neighboring groups, etc.), and knew it was time to end all that, and bring peace within and for our brothers. At least, that was his intention. Leave it to mankind to often choose otherwise with stupid wars and childishness.
You can't stop with the OT / old ways and let that be the end of the story. And new day dawned afterwards, and we're still there, not yesterday. People can choose that or not of course, but were not stuck in the previous dark ages.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 07-01-2022 at 09:53 AM..
Yeah, and that's why there is the contrast between the old covenant (Judaism, for the few) and the new (Christianity, for all).
God knew it was time for a huge change. He likely "got it" (all the brutality yes, sacrifices, slaughtering of neighboring groups, etc.), and knew it was time to end all that, and bring peace within and for our brothers. At least, that's his intention. Leave it to mankind to often choose otherwise with stupid wars and childishness.
You can't stop with the OT / old ways and let that be the end of the story. And new day dawned afterwards, and we're still there, not yesterday. People can choose that or not of course, but were not stuck in the previous dark ages.
So god was all in favor of "all the brutality yes, sacrifices, slaughtering of neighboring groups, etc." at one time. Didn't believe in peace. And then just up and changed his mind. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
The thing I find ironic is that without the Bible, we have no way to even DEFINE what morality is. We have no way to measure it.
He starts with a basic assumption that we should follow the rules given to a different group of people living in a different time, and different place. He's claiming that we should follow the Mosaic Covenant, which Scripture does not tell us. Jesus lived a perfect life in obedience to the Mosaic Law. We don't have to follow that. Christians don't have to.
But his complaint is against a completely holy and righteous God judging sinners. I have no clue how he claims he can even definitely say that any of those actions are wrong, other than his opinion. He just comes across as a foolish whiner that doesn't have a clue how to even begin to intellectually understand the text, much less have a moral ground to stand on here.
The thing I find ironic is that without the Bible, we have no way to even DEFINE what morality is. We have no way to measure it.
But his complaint is against a completely holy and righteous God judging sinners. I have no clue how he claims he can even definitely say that any of those actions are wrong, other than his opinion.
Other than other religious scriptures of other religions. Not to mention societal norms.
The thing I find ironic is that without the Bible, we have no way to even DEFINE what morality is. We have no way to measure it.
On the contrary, we do. Nowhere in the Bible is morality defined, we are just given rules, some of which are acceptable today, but many are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
But his complaint is against a completely holy and righteous God judging sinners. I have no clue how he claims he can even definitely say that any of those actions are wrong, other than his opinion. He just comes across as a foolish whiner that doesn't have a clue how to even begin to intellectually understand the text, much less have a moral ground to stand on here.
Yeah, and that's why there is the contrast between the old covenant (Judaism, for the few) and the new (Christianity, for all).
God knew it was time for a huge change. He likely "got it" (all the brutality yes, sacrifices, slaughtering of neighboring groups, etc.), and knew it was time to end all that, and bring peace within and for our brothers. At least, that's his intention. Leave it to mankind to often choose otherwise with stupid wars and childishness.
You can't stop with the OT / old ways and let that be the end of the story. And new day dawned afterwards, and we're still there, not yesterday. People can choose that or not of course, but were not stuck in the previous dark ages.
Thanks for sharing. The reason I struggle with this is because supposedly in the beginning, it was good (Genesis 1:31). Then things went haywire and had to be restored with a flood. Side bar, dinosaurs and humans together on the ark is a visual I sometimes ponder. Based on the bolded, Jesus therefore seems to be God's third crack at this creation thing.
And yet even the New Testament doesn't bring peace, or treat everyone as equal. Rather it's more a product of culture at that point in history, and even most churches no longer lend credibility to certain aspects (misogyny, slave ownership, etc). These inconsistencies can be difficult to rectify, other than saying "It's the Bible, it's right". And I still don't understand the obsession with the ten commandments of Mosaic Law in the church today, while dismissing the rest of OT law.
Navigating along the spiritual journey, I've come to really enjoy perspectives that contrast those I was taught growing up. This video in particular was insightful, and I've found value in the common sense delivery of Sam Harris. I'm currently using his 'Waking Up' meditation app, which is one of the best I've experienced.
The more I would read the Bible, the more I struggled with the sheer brutality of the Old Testament. Of course there's been scholarly debate over what exactly Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17 (touched on here too at 2:10 in the video). I've found it ironic that many churches teach they're no longer under Mosaic Law, yet still cling so tightly to the ten commandments. Why not cling to the other, less flattering Old Testament directives too? Perhaps some food for thought for curious minds.
Yes, the 'scholarly debate' over Matthew 5:17 is to avoid what Matthew 5:17-18 literally says.
Civilization and society had morality long before they had knowledge of your Bible. And there are ways to define morality without any reference to your God.
Regardless of what the OP stated the morality of your God as depicted in the OT is quite different than the morality of the NT hence even according to your own Bible morality is not absolute
No matter how strongly you believe that morality comes from the Bible it is simply a belief and not a fact.
If morality came from your Bible one who expect more similar moral laws in more countries than currently exist.
He starts with a basic assumption that we should follow the rules given to a different group of people living in a different time, and different place.
Understood. Couldn't the same logic be used with the NT too though? Different group of people living in a different time, and different place. Thus why we no longer have slavery in the United States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
He just comes across as a foolish whiner that doesn't have a clue how to even begin to intellectually understand the text, much less have a moral ground to stand on here.
I suspect this thread can survive without name calling.
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