Immediately after death… sleep or heaven? (Isaiah, prophet, after-life, faith)
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Yes, I realize that some 'Christian conspirators' believe that the intention of the authors of Strong's Concordance is to collude with the KJV and throw mainstream Christian beliefs into disrepute () but the word under discussion (soul) cannot be given a false definition as long as there are expert linguists around who could easily dispute this. IS there any expert linguist anyone might know who disputes the above definition of 'soul'?
So, if we allow intelligence and reason to prevail, based on the above definition of 'soul', 'it' returns to God when a person dies. However, 'it' is not a living thing that sees, hears and feels but is rather an 'element' (my word) that, when applied to the body, gives that body 'life'.
Those of us that are not God can apply 'artificial respiration' to a clinically dead person by means of breathing techniques when natural respiration has ceased or is faltering. Such techniques, if applied quickly and properly, can prevent some deaths from drowning, choking, strangulation, suffocation, carbon monoxide poisoning, and electric shock.
Actually, even if the Bible didn't equate 'life' with 'body and breath' WE are surely smart enough to have figured that out for ourselves. A dead person ceases to breathe.
Oh good grief. Biblically speaking, the soul is not the spirit. Again, the Bible . . .if you are going to go by the Bible, makes a distinction between the soul and spirit. Read 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. The writers of those verses proceed on the view that man is a tripartite being - body, soul, and spirit. And Jesus in Matthew 10:28 stated that the soul survives the death of the body - man can kill the body but he cannot kill the soul. Jesus said that.
And how many times has it been stated that the book of Revelation, Revelation is part of the Bible . . .right? . . .Right! The book of Revelation in chapters 6 and 7 shows, according to John, martyrs in heaven. And they are very much awake!
I assume that you're 'good griefing' the Bible? The bible (and a Bible Concordance) is all that I'm quoting.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
Biblically speaking, the soul is not the spirit.
According to the Hebrew definition, which is what I gave, the soul DOES equate to the spirit. I don't speak Hebrew personally and so I have to resort to another source (in this case, Strong's) from which to get my information. Are you saying that the Strong's Bible Concordance regarding its definition of the word 'soul' is incorrect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Again, the Bible . . .if you are going to go by the Bible, makes a distinction between the soul and spirit. Read 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. The writers of those verses proceed on the view that man is a tripartite being - body, soul, and spirit.
But these guys were 'mere men' just like the rest of us. They were imperfect. There's no reason to hang on to their every word as if our lives are dependent on this. These guys would have or should have known the Hebrew definition of 'soul'. And so, they (gasp) either made a mistake (oooh, is that even a possibility?) OR their words have been misinterpreted. They would have known the Hebrew definition of 'soul' and so they would not have gone out of their way to alter it simply to appease the misguided doctrines of those of the future 21st Century.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
And Jesus in Matthew 10:28 stated that the soul survives the death of the body - man can kill the body but he cannot kill the soul. Jesus said that.
And how many times has it been stated that the book of Revelation, Revelation is part of the Bible . . .right? . . .Right! The book of Revelation in chapters 6 and 7 shows, according to John, martyrs in heaven. And they are very much awake!
I don't think using the Book of Revelation (a book FULL of symbolisms, prophecies, this vision and that vision and yet more visions) should be the 'go to' source to search for 'literal' meanings. Particularly so if it appears to contradict OTHER previously ESTABLISHED scripture.
It seems you are mixing components of the Christian faith with Catholicism. Remember, the Catholic bible has additional books that the Christian bible does not have.
I don't know what you are refering to, but my understanding is that the Catholic bible was the first and original Christian bible. Everything written after Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door of the Castle church, is newer and a modern adaptation of the Christian bible compiled and interpreted by the Catholic Church. I am not knocking them -- just noting what came first.
But then, I am not a theologian, so what do I know? Not much really.
As to the OP's question, it seems the bible is clear that we sleep until judgment day.
That is why I have always been confused when Christ told the thief "today you will be with me in Paradise. Not only did I think we sleep until judgment day, but Christ was in the tomb for 3 days until he rose from the dead, and did not ascend into heaven for 40 days.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died, if he was still in the burial tomb? You could say his soul left his body, but that is preposterous in consideration of his later ascention into heaven.
I find the bible very confusing and convoluted. It is a challenge to navigate using logic.
Last edited by Igor Blevin; 03-04-2023 at 02:50 AM..
I don't know what you are refering to, but my understanding is that the Catholic bible was the first and original Christian bible. Everything written after Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door of the Castle church, is newer and a modern adaptation of the Christian bible compiled and interpreted by the Catholic Church. I am not knocking them -- just noting what came first.
But then, I am not a theologian, so what do I know? Not much really.
As to the OP's question, it seems the bible is clear that we sleep until judgment day.
That is why I have always been confused when Christ told the thief "today you will be with me in Paradise. Not only did I think we sleep until judgment day, but Christ was in the tomb for 3 days until he rose from the dead, and did not ascend into heaven for 40 days.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died, if he was still in the burial tomb? You could say his soul left his body, but that is preposterous in consideration of his later ascention into heaven.
I find the bible very confusing and convoluted. It is a challenge to navigate using logic.
On the other side there is no ‘night & day’, just is-ness.
And that is what I said in my original post. I guess the question is why the priest would say that angels met him and he is up in heaven now. Doesn’t he know what the Bible says? It would not be any worse to hear that the deceased is sleeping and awaiting the resurrection, along with the rest of us.
Is this similar to what many of my co workers ridicule me about regarding penance, or confession. They all say there is no reason to confess sins to a man (priest) when the Bible states you must confess directly to God. So, again, the Catholic Church is not following the Bible and making up their own rules. And this is what makes me have some doubt about religion. Just saying that makes me feel evil because I am not supposed to question my faith and I wouldn’t other than the fact that my religion seems to be practicing differently than what the Bible states. Let’s not get into me not eating meat today or any other Friday during Lent.
Is there anything in your study of the Bible that sits well with you? Have you studied the Bible and understood the full import?
I assume that you're 'good griefing' the Bible? The bible (and a Bible Concordance) is all that I'm quoting.
No. That was directed at you. What you are doing is called cherry picking, hanging your hat on the word 'sleep' while completely ignoring and/or rejecting the various New Testament references that speak to the fact that that the soul does not sleep. The word 'sleep' merely refers to the dead body and says nothing about the state of the soul of the person who has died.
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According to the Hebrew definition, which is what I gave, the soul DOES equate to the spirit. I don't speak Hebrew personally and so I have to resort to another source (in this case, Strong's) from which to get my information. Are you saying that the Strong's Bible Concordance regarding its definition of the word 'soul' is incorrect?
I'm saying, as I already have, that in the NT the soul, spirit, and body are all distinct from each other. Even in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew, there are passages such as Deut. 4:29 and 6:5 which speak of the soul as being something that man has as part of himself. So while the word 'soul' can refer to the whole of a person, it can also refer to just that inner essence of man as a part of him. Man can be said to be a soul, but also to have a soul. On the other hand, man is said to have a spirit but is never said to be a spirit. The soul is what animates the body while the spirit is that part of man that connects with God. Both survive the death of the body.
There is a view that man is physically born dichotomous - body and soul only. Then if a person receives Christ as Savior he is provided with a human spirit - he is born again and is now trichotomous - body, soul, and spirit.
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But these guys were 'mere men' just like the rest of us. They were imperfect. There's no reason to hang on to their every word as if our lives are dependent on this. These guys would have or should have known the Hebrew definition of 'soul'. And so, they (gasp) either made a mistake (oooh, is that even a possibility?) OR their words have been misinterpreted. They would have known the Hebrew definition of 'soul' and so they would not have gone out of their way to alter it simply to appease the misguided doctrines of those of the future 21st Century.
Yet you are hanging on the word 'sleep' as if your life depended on it. It seems that for you something in the Bible is only 'biblical' if you personally agree with it, but if you don't agree with something the Bible says then it's not 'biblical' even though the Bible states it as a fact.
You should consider that it is you who are making the mistake, not Paul, Peter, the writer of Hebrews who all disagree with your viewpoint.
No one is saying that the body doesn't die. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Again, Peter, knowing that he was about to die spoke of himself departing from his earthly dwelling with reference to his body. He knew that his soul would leave his body leaving it behind.
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I don't think using the Book of Revelation (a book FULL of symbolisms, prophecies, this vision and that vision and yet more visions) should be the 'go to' source to search for 'literal' meanings. Particularly so if it appears to contradict OTHER previously ESTABLISHED scripture.
Not everything in the book of Revelation is symbolic. Symbolic language in Revelation is used to describe things that cannot be described otherwise. But the description of people in heaven and being conscious can be described in simple terms. Revelation does not contradict the rest of the NT when describing those who have died being in heaven.
Whether you believe the Bible or not, and whether the Bible is true or not, the NT does teach that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. It does not teach soul-sleep.
I find the bible very confusing and convoluted. It is a challenge to navigate using logic.
I think it's inherently problematic to interpret materials composed over the 1500+ years preceding the 4th century CE with a post-Enlightenment mindset, or as though they were written with the intention of forming an internally coherent single text. Again, I'm not a Christian, but I find that religious texts in general make more sense when you read them like poems rather than like history books or instruction manuals.
As to the OP's question, it seems the bible is clear that we sleep until judgment day.
That is why I have always been confused when Christ told the thief "today you will be with me in Paradise. Not only did I think we sleep until judgment day, but Christ was in the tomb for 3 days until he rose from the dead, and did not ascend into heaven for 40 days.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died, if he was still in the burial tomb? You could say his soul left his body, but that is preposterous in consideration of his later ascention into heaven.
I find the bible very confusing and convoluted. It is a challenge to navigate using logic.
" Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" 1 Cor 15:51
^ this verse doesn't need me to explain it - it explains itself!
What you are doing is called cherry picking, hanging your hat on the word 'sleep' while completely ignoring and/or rejecting the various New Testament references that speak to the fact that that the soul does not sleep. The word 'sleep' merely refers to the dead body and says nothing about the state of the soul of the person who has died.
You have it in your head that 'soul' is something other than the definition that is applied to it. I've given the definition of the word as per its Hebrew meaning from Strong's Bible Concordance. I wouldn't have known what 'soul' meant had I not looked up the word. The Hebrew meaning of the word is 'breath'. And that 'breath', we are told, returns to God when a person dies. Yes, this is basically 'child talk' and not 'rocket science' that we're given in scripture, but we get the gist. We're told in genesis that God breathed 'life' into Adam, and he became a living soul. The reversal of this act appears to be what occurs at death. Prior to this act Adam didn't exist. Similarly, so too when a person dies.
I'm not sure why this biblical scenario would be problematic for you and most professed Christians. At the resurrection the righteous dead will be raised 'incorruptible'. This is still a WIN/WIN situation for 'the believer'. Why is it SO important for Christians to get INSTANT gratification at death? It actually sounds very 'worldly'. Also, what IS the advantage for 'souls' or 'breaths' () of an individual waiting around in heaven for what could be thousands of years before being reunited to 'the body' on Resurrection Day? Moreover, if they are already in heaven, then why the need for a resurrection at all? It makes no sense. Surely, even spiritual matters require SOME kind of logic behind them.
Fortunately, the Bible scenario that has the deceased lying patiently in their graves' awaiting resurrection is the one that we are given. This DOES make sense ...kind of. No one receives special treatment since all are raised at the same time. They, along with the living 'righteous' receive 'their reward' at the same time. No one jumps the gun. It all seems to have been worked out quite well in advance as one would it expect it to have been. But then, 'mainstream Christianity' (and the influence of Catholicism) came along and fouled things up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
I'm saying, as I already have, that in the NT the soul, spirit, and body are all distinct from each other. Even in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew, there are passages such as Deut. 4:29 and 6:5 which speak of the soul as being something that man has as part of himself. So while the word 'soul' can refer to the whole of a person, it can also refer to just that inner essence of man as a part of him. Man can be said to be a soul, but also to have a soul. On the other hand, man is said to have a spirit but is never said to be a spirit. The soul is what animates the body while the spirit is that part of man that connects with God. Both survive the death of the body.
There is a view that man is physically born dichotomous - body and soul only. Then if a person receives Christ as Savior he is provided with a human spirit - he is born again and is now trichotomous - body, soul, and spirit.
Okay, I can't continue going around in circles on this topic. Your mind is set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Yet you are hanging on the word 'sleep' as if your life depended on it. It seems that for you something in the Bible is only 'biblical' if you personally agree with it, but if you don't agree with something the Bible says then it's not 'biblical' even though the Bible states it as a fact.
I don't think that I've said that 'I agree' with scripture on this topic or on any scriptural topic. I'm merely quoting scripture and, if need be, I might say that it makes sense to me or as much sense as can be made regarding 'the supernatural'. I don't know if anything that we may debate here pertaining to scripture can be regarded as 'the truth'. When someone asks a religious question, such as that of the OP in this case, I 'assume' that the Bible will offer the answer. I personally don't know the answer. As I keep saying, I haven't experienced death and so I have to go to a source that may offer up an answer to the OP's question. And that's what I've done. All of this extra padding that has been applied to scripture from the minds of religious leaders doesn't interest me since it doesn't tally with the words from what is regarded as a 'Holy Book'. "I" don't know if the Bible IS 'divine' but it's still the source I turn to for answers to religious questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You should consider that it is you who are making the mistake, not Paul, Peter, the writer of Hebrews who all disagree with your viewpoint.
I am NOT giving 'my' viewpoint! I'm simply giving scripture. I may say that I agree with scripture - rather than the other way around - but 'scripture' is my source. And if Paul, Peter, et al, appear to contradict what the scripture has already established then, 1. they have been misunderstood by the reader, or, 2. they are wrong. I doubt that it's the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
No one is saying that the body doesn't die. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Again, Peter, knowing that he was about to die spoke of himself departing from his earthly dwelling with reference to his body. He knew that his soul would leave his body leaving it behind.
Yes, I have never denied that the scripture DOES tell us that there is a separation of the soul (breath) and the body at death. In fact, I have been stating this since post one. The body DOES die, and the 'soul' (the life-giving element) DOES separate from the body and returns to God. However, the 'soul' is not a living entity in and of itself. The 'soul' GIVES life to the body which is now in a dormant state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Whether you believe the Bible or not, and whether the Bible is true or not . . .
Regardless, I AM using the Bible as my source for this thread topic whether I believe it or not or as to whether it's true or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
. . .the NT does teach that the believer goes to heaven when he dies.
No, it does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
It does not teach soul-sleep.
Correct! 'Soul sleep' is YOUR term, NOT the Bible's and NOT mine!
This is not even a case of 'agreeing to disagree'. You are adding TO scripture as well as adding 'soul' to the word 'sleep' simply to make the term sound sinister. The body 'sleeps' ...the 'soul' returns to God. The term 'soul sleep' doesn't make sense and it's a term that I wouldn't think to use myself BECAUSE it doesn't make sense.
As to the OP's question, it seems the bible is clear that we sleep until judgment day.
That is why I have always been confused when Christ told the thief "today you will be with me in Paradise. Not only did I think we sleep until judgment day, but Christ was in the tomb for 3 days until he rose from the dead, and did not ascend into heaven for 40 days.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died, if he was still in the burial tomb? You could say his soul left his body, but that is preposterous in consideration of his later ascention into heaven.
I find the bible very confusing and convoluted. It is a challenge to navigate using logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou
" Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" 1 Cor 15:51
^ this verse doesn't need me to explain it - it explains itself!
Yes, it does. But do YOU understand it? Paul is referring to the return of Jesus when, 1. the graves will be opened and the 'righteous' deceased will be given immortality, and 2. those 'righteous' that are STILL ALIVE when Jesus returns will also receive immortality. If Jesus returned today, WE would be living. We have not yet tasted death, i.e. 'sleep'.
This passage of scripture is self-evident.
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) but the word under discussion (soul) cannot be given a false definition as long as there are expert linguists around who could easily dispute this. IS there any expert linguist anyone might know who disputes the above definition of 'soul'? 
No one receives special treatment since all are raised at the same time. They, along with the living 'righteous' receive 'their reward' at the same time. No one jumps the gun. It all seems to have been worked out quite well in advance as one would it expect it to have been. But then, 'mainstream Christianity' (and the influence of Catholicism) came along and fouled things up. 
