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Regarding this specific scripture since my response is requested, I have no idea who said Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are involved in Exodus. Exodus is the story of Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Unless I am missing something, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are not involved. So yes, I would agree that there is a connection to Exodus. Not sure why you'd have to get angry and say "phony claptrap". If someone has a different interpretation of the verse, I'd love to know their interpretation and why they interpret the verse in the way that they do.
The idea is that Jesus, Mary and Josephus escape to Egypt for 10+ years to avoid Herod and his sons, returning to go and live Nazareth, so the Exodus passage out of context is meant to be a prophecy of that.
The problem is this contradicts Luke, who says the family lived in Nazareth during this time, even going to Jerusalem every year.
You do realize that the people in the new testament read the old testament canon at the time. So where in Isaiah it says he will be born of a Virgin... Mary becomes a virgin.
It says he will be called Immanuel... so they called Jesus Immanuel.
Another good one is the one where Jesus came riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Why? Because the old testament had some vague reference about the Messiah riding into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zec 9:9). So they fetched Jesus a donkey to fulfill the prophecy.
Just because it is vague does not mean it does not refer to Jesus.
No one knows literally EVERYTHING about Christianity. It's teachings and dogmas could be gathered in something the size of the IRS tax code. One like myself can make a rigorous study of it on the Internet and use their brains to ferret what sounds right from what doesn't sound right with simply logic and rationale. Is that too big an order for a Christian--to just crack a book and read the pros and cons?
The legitimate answer is what the text says, "Israel is my son, NOT Jesus. I made no mention of Jesus. I said I called my son, Israel out of Egypt when my servant Moses led them out of Egypt to Canaan, NOT Jesus."
Read the words again. Do you see Jesus mentioned anywhere in that verse?
“When Israel was a child, I loved him,And out of Egypt I called My son."
So why do apologists continue to lie through their teeth saying "Jesus fulfilled this prophecy. That proves he is the son of God who died for your sins."
Doesn't that seem dishonest to you? Why are Christian apologists so dishonest?
What if they see the world in a different way than you do? What if they see poetry and possibilities?
Is that okay? Are people allowed to be different from you? Do Christians need to clear everything through your hyperbole first before they're allowed to have thought?
Amazing to go through life this narissistically.
FWIW, I used to call my pregnancy my little bean. I did not literally think my son was a bean. And when he was born I did not say "honey, let's name him bean." He got a different name then. Not everything is said in a robotically literal way. Just a thought. BTW, sometimes today I call him honey. I do not literally believe he is bee excretion.
You do realize that the people in the new testament read the old testament canon at the time. So where in Isaiah it says he will be born of a Virgin... Mary becomes a virgin.
It says he will be called Immanuel... so they called Jesus Immanuel.
Another good one is the one where Jesus came riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Why? Because the old testament had some vague reference about the Messiah riding into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zec 9:9). So they fetched Jesus a donkey to fulfill the prophecy.
Or Jesus did these things so people would recognize him. I mean it's not like Jesus didn't know the Bible. That doesn't mean it was nefarious or a retrofit.
What if they see the world in a different way than you do? What if they see poetry and possibilities?
Is that okay? Are people allowed to be different from you? Do Christians need to clear everything through your hyperbole first before they're allowed to have thought?
Amazing to go through life this narissistically.
FWIW, I used to call my pregnancy my little bean. I did not literally think my son was a bean. And when he was born I did not say "honey, let's name him bean." He got a different name then. Not everything is said in a robotically literal way. Just a thought. BTW, sometimes today I call him honey. I do not literally believe he is bee excretion.
Wait a second, Jerz. How do we know your little bean isn't your your husband? How do we know you aren't referring to you niece or nephew or little brother or little sister or the the neighbor's kid?
If you say, "My little bean got up this morning" how do we know who you're talking about?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-10-2023 at 08:39 AM..
Just because it is vague does not mean it does not refer to Jesus.
"he" could be referring to Jesus.
Comp, do you actually make the leap from "It could be Jesus" to "It IS Jesus?"
"Could be" could refer to Simon bar Kochba. Did you know that Simon bar Kochba thought himself the Messiah? Technically the person in the verse "COULD" be anybody from that period. When you buy a lottery ticket you COULD be a winner. Does that mean you ARE a winner?
Or Jesus did these things so people would recognize him. I mean it's not like Jesus didn't know the Bible. That doesn't mean it was nefarious or a retrofit.
A retrofit is exactly what it was. Thanks for the word. If there was something in the old Testament that the NT authors (or Jesus and his disciples if they actually existed) felt alluded to the Messiah... they shoehorned it into the Jesus narrative to legitimize his Messiahship. Unlike retrofit, nefarious is not a good word. These people (we assume) honestly thought he was the Messiah therefore he needed credibility as being so. "Fulfilling" these old testament lent him credibility.
Others of the old Testament prophecies as Thrill is attesting to... are simply 'reaches' by Christian apologists that Jewish scholars and others see in a completely different light. Yes they COULD point to Jesus but they are too vague or nebulous to achieve any consensus among people who study the OT.
A retrofit is exactly what it was. Thanks for the word. If there was something in the old Testament that the NT authors (or Jesus and his disciples if they actually existed) felt alluded to the Messiah... they shoehorned it into the Jesus narrative to legitimize his Messiahship. Unlike retrofit, nefarious is not a good word. These people (we assume) honestly thought he was the Messiah therefore he needed credibility as being so. "Fulfilling" these old testament lent him credibility.
Others of the old Testament prophecies as Thrill is attesting to... are simply 'reaches' by Christian apologists that Jewish scholars and others see in a completely different light. Yes they COULD point to Jesus but they are too vague or nebulous to achieve any consensus among people who study the OT.
Good points, eddie. I would point out, however that people can honestly believe in a cause and then viciously lie, steal and murder for that cause because they honestly believe it to be a noble cause. "The ends justifies the means" syndrome.
The idea is that Jesus, Mary and Josephus escape to Egypt for 10+ years to avoid Herod and his sons, returning to go and live Nazareth, so the Exodus passage out of context is meant to be a prophecy of that.
The problem is this contradicts Luke, who says the family lived in Nazareth during this time, even going to Jerusalem every year.
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