Question for those who practice Judaism (genesis, bible, Israel, quote)
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per Ibn Ezra commentary: "FROM THE LORD. This is a poetic way of saying from Himself. *The verse reads: Then the Lord caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. The second from the Lord is redundant. The line should have read: then the Lord caused rain…from Himself out of heaven. Ibn Ezra points out that it is poetic to repeat “the Lord” twice. The term Ibn Ezra uses for poetic is tzachot (elegant). Weiser interprets it to mean, in our context, precise. The Bible wanted to be precise."
That is one of 91 commentaries available on Genesis 19:24 at Sefaria here. The commentary is from rabbinic sources through the centuries. Not all 91 commentaries are in English, most are in Hebrew, but many are in English.
Rashi commentary is that "Wherever it is said 'וה “And the Lord”, it means He and His Celestial Court."
The Rashbam commentary is that "the first mention refers to the angel Gavriel, and the second mention refers to G'd personally"
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-19-2024 at 07:34 PM..
Commentary from Rabbeinu Bahya, "We find three divergent opinions amongst our sages as to the meaning of the words in this verse. [The basic difficulty is the repeated mention of the name of G’d] Rabbi Yehudah bar Seymon understands the angel Gavriel as being the subject of the [first mention]. The second expression he understands as referring to G’d personally; Rabbi Eliezer said that wherever the name of ה' is introduced with the prefix ו [first mention] it refers to “G’d with His celestial court.”
Rabbi Eliezer feels that the verse testifies that both G’d Himself and His celestial court agreed to this form of punishment, but that it emanated from G’d directly. As pointed out previously, every time the prefix ו appears before the name of G’d it is an allusion to the angel who at that particular time acts on behalf of G’d.
per Ibn Ezra commentary: "FROM THE LORD. This is a poetic way of saying from Himself. *The verse reads: Then the Lord caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. The second from the Lord is redundant. The line should have read: then the Lord caused rain…from Himself out of heaven. Ibn Ezra points out that it is poetic to repeat “the Lord” twice. The term Ibn Ezra uses for poetic is tzachot (elegant). Weiser interprets it to mean, in our context, precise. The Bible wanted to be precise."
That is one of 91 commentaries available on Genesis 19:24 at Sefaria here. The commentary is from rabbinic sources through the centuries. Not all 91 commentaries are in English, most are in Hebrew, but many are in English.
Rashi commentary is that "Wherever it is said 'וה “And the Lord”, it means He and His Celestial Court."
The Rashbam commentary is that "the first mention refers to the angel Gavriel, and the second mention refers to G'd personally"
I just read your edit. I was going to say from Rashi's commentary, we could deduce "His Celestial Court" would be referring to the two angels. And Rashbam's commentary would say one of those angels was Gabriel.
I can see this reasoning. I can also see this as being potential poetry, although even though I'm not an expert on the poetry of Scripture, I know the Psalms and Proverbs usually write poetry with two separate statements that says the same thing. Genesis 19:24 seems to be one statement with two mentions of the divine name. Thanks for the response.
Here is some evidence from the OT showing God as more than One Individual. Genesis 19:24 says concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.......
regarding the post above, on the same topic and relevant to this thread,
in Judaism, G'd is never more than one.
G'd has a celestial court for instance angels that do His bidding, such as Gavriel in the earlier example.
But G'd is only ever one.
The Shema prayer which we say several times daily as Jews, states just that
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד׃ Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G‑d, the L-rd is One.
typically that is the prayer we sing to our children as a lullaby at bedtime. and for many it is the last thing we say upon deathbed.
regarding the post above, on the same topic and relevant to this thread,
in Judaism, G'd is never more than one.
G'd has a celestial court for instance angels that do His bidding, such as Gavriel in the earlier example.
But G'd is only ever one.
The Shema prayer which we say several times daily as Jews, states just that
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד׃ Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G‑d, the L-rd is One.
typically that is the prayer we sing to our children as a lullaby at bedtime. and for many it is the last thing we say upon deathbed.
Thanks Tzaphkiel I have a better understanding from Judaism on these things. I also appreciate the resources you've given me to look at. Sefaria.org is easy to navigate when looking for commentaries from historical rabbis.
From the Christian perspective, Jesus is our rabbi we listen to. Our New Testament is like our commentaries (Which contains the teachings and sayings of Jesus) concerning what the TaNaK says and the teachings found there. When we look at verses like Genesis 19:24, we would say this is a reference to the Trinity. The Shema prayer, we would say it represents the unified principle of who the L-RD is. For instance we see the same Hebrew word אֶחָֽד (eḥāḏ) in 1 Samuel 11:7, where Saul and Samuel gathered the people together to battle against Nahash the Ammonite.....
And he took a yoke of oxen, and cut them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the borders of Israel by the hand of messengers, saying: 'Whosoever cometh not forth after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done unto his oxen.' And the dread of the L-RD fell on the people, and they came out as one man......
So in G-d's sight, Israel was one man because they were all of the same heart and one with each other. We do a similar take concerning Adam and Eve, and the idea that a man and woman who are married, become one flesh. This is how we see the Shema from the Trinity perspective. Again I thank you for your responses and the resources you've given me. I will use it for more insight and comparison concerning our beliefs.
Thanks Tzaphkiel I have a better understanding from Judaism on these things. I also appreciate the resources you've given me to look at. Sefaria.org is easy to navigate when looking for commentaries from historical rabbis.
From the Christian perspective, Jesus is our rabbi we listen to. Our New Testament is like our commentaries (Which contains the teachings and sayings of Jesus) concerning what the TaNaK says and the teachings found there. When we look at verses like Genesis 19:24, we would say this is a reference to the Trinity. The Shema prayer, we would say it represents the unified principle of who the L-RD is. For instance we see the same Hebrew word אֶחָֽד (eḥāḏ) in 1 Samuel 11:7, where Saul and Samuel gathered the people together to battle against Nahash the Ammonite.....
And he took a yoke of oxen, and cut them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the borders of Israel by the hand of messengers, saying: 'Whosoever cometh not forth after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done unto his oxen.' And the dread of the L-RD fell on the people, and they came out as one man......
So in G-d's sight, Israel was one man because they were all of the same heart and one with each other. We do a similar take concerning Adam and Eve, and the idea that a man and woman who are married, become one flesh. This is how we see the Shema from the Trinity perspective. Again I thank you for your responses and the resources you've given me. I will use it for more insight and comparison concerning our beliefs.
Obviously in order to take two men to make them one man, well, there has to be 2 men to begin with.
Jesus brought a covenant that makes the house of Judah one with the house of Israel.
Jesus said himself," I am only come seeking the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and like John says to the Jews," what do I have to do with you?"
Do you think the lost sheep of the house of Israel were lost Jews? THEY WERE NON JEWISH ISRAELIS.
There were 3 million Jews present, and the Gentile was just an after thought, there are no Gentiles in the covenant, only Gentiles who joined the chosen nation.
It was ten years before the first Convert, ten years.
You guys quote all these scriptures as if they were not written in the context of being a legal sect of Judaism.
Everything said has to fall on ears biased against God.
" Questions for those who practice Judaism?"
Lol
Jesus, Paul, Timothy, John the Baptist, Silas, the two sons of thunder, and Peter
All these practiced Judaism, and you take their religion and present it like it's some new religion to bring down Moses
What, where, and when has Gid made two people one people and what is there name?
I see all the Jews out there hated by the world because they practice the ways of Messiah, AND THEY STAND ALONE, WHO HAS JOINED THEM?
Do you think for one min that you have been made one with Jews, and if not the Jews, who have you become one with?
We know what the Jews do, the Jews are the only people in the world who practice the religion of the God of Israel.
Who have you been made one with?
Certainly not through conversion, so how have you become a part of the commonwealth of Israel?
Yea, go ahead and quote a bunch of scripture written to converts of Judaism that should do it.
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I have a better understanding from Judaism on these things. I also appreciate the resources you've given me to look at. Sefaria.org is easy to navigate when looking for commentaries from historical rabbis.