Gary Olsen's "Master Path" - anybody familiar? (Scientology, divine, organizations)

[allan1015]

end_of_faith

Just so its clear I still find your messages filled of slanted views and you sound like a jilted girlfriend.

I'm still waiting for facts, but given you have been flatly seen to lie and slant to your advantage - so many times, I really cant take any of your conjecture to have much merit other then your mad, upset and MP didn't work for you.

Your claims that you know the past lives and reincarnation aspects of people posting here - just goers to show your brand of lunacy

I notice, again, that when faced with facts of some trivial think like repayment of missed seminar fees, you don't respond. You only act to spin these things as negatives and bad, but don't have any time for facts.

Your hypothesis that real gurus don't charge - more horsehit. Every organization of any major guru I know of charges in some way. Be it a yearly donation, a weekly tithing, a monthly dues, they all need and try to collect money/resources in some way. Your proposal that real gurus in real organizations should be free is idyllic new age bull**** that doesn't align with facts and just shows your still immature spiritual development.

Its not a fact, its just a factoid you want to be true so it supports your need to be right and to get your ex lovers revenge on others.

let me know when you can have a real conversation about any point, you can even pick it, no shouting at me when you find I am showing you up, no calling me evil and brainwashed when you cant find any facts or logic, just a mature, real discussion. I don't think your up for it, but I'm open to trying, again.

In fact same invitation is open to anyone.

[FormerChela]

Originally Posted by allan1015

In Part 1 (Page 1 OF PDF)
Line 2 Program Service Revenue 743,478 - we should look at see Part vii line 93 and
for Line 3 Membership Dues 28,530 - we should see part vii line 94

If you look around you will see a note that there is even more detail on these portions in Stmts 6 (page 18 of pdf) and then on Stmnt 8 (Page 20 of pdf)

In Statement 8 (titled as FORM 990 Part 6 Explanations) you will see that Memberships dues, the $28,530 reflects ONLY the portion of dues that applies to the cost of study materials.

What line reflects the portion of dues going to garys pocket Allen?

Thx for pointing that out.. boy are they slick. I should have realized they would have covered themselves somewhere in those forms, in connection with that figure.

A really good question to now ask is. Why are they only stating the amount applied to study materals? 5.5%? Why would they do that Allen? It's a fair question. I realize I was wrong in my inital suspicion of the dues being unrecorded without explaination. Although, I'm right about 90% or so of the dues income, being unrecorded directally(with an explaination, that only leads to more questions, not a final answer). Where did the other 94% really go Allen?

Originally Posted by allan1015

The other 94%? That would be about $482,000. I suspect it is accounted for in the Line 1d - Direct Contributions of about $705,000. In other words 94% of member dues are reported as direct public support. But thats only a guess. I doubt there was $705K in other donations from the 'public' to MP.

This would of course suggest MP only made $223,000 in donations that yr. I really doubt they made that little in donations, but that's just my speculation. I myself gave over $1,000 in donations per year, and that was from a job of working in fast food..uurggh. I gave MP more than 50% of what I earned in combined dues, donations, and materal purchaces. I really did go all out, and bought/copied as many satsangs as i could.

MP used to rent out tapes at $1 a peice(to copy). I would rent about 10 at a time, copy them, then send them back. MP stopped doing this in 2005 I think.

You don't find it at all odd that they don't just report the total sum of all their dues income? Why just state a small %, then lop the rest into an untracable blob of combined incomes?

Originally Posted by allan1015

I wonder, just sorta thinking out loud, if your analysis ends up being wrong, if the data doesn't support your egregious claims and nasty allegations, will you show the caliber of persona to perhaps even admit it? Or even apologize?

Of course I would, as I just did, about not noticing the end part of the form, where MP states that(for an unknown reason) they are reporting only a very small fraction of their dues income. I know I'm not a professional investigator, probably far from one. I'm not looking at that tax info biasly. I saw several things there in those forms that struck me as very off. Compelling me to share what sticks out.

Originally Posted by allan1015

In any case we can continue. It's good to have data, isn't it.

It sure is.

Originally Posted by allan1015

Do you know what the seminar fees where in 2003?
I know they are $40/satsang, $120/3 satsang weekend today. Is that what they were 6 years ago when your were attending?

yes

Originally Posted by allan1015

Say they were the same
1200 students per each of 4 Major seminars, at $120 = $576,000

1000 Students per each of 2 regional seminars at $40 =
$80,000

950 Students per each of 6 weekends with Joy at $?? =
(Never attended, don't know what the costs was for this)

$5 per meeting then.

Originally Posted by allan1015

The total is supposed to be in the range of $750K, so at The above rates it does seem a bit short if Joys weekend thinsg were also $120, but I suspect the 2003 actual rates/prices where lower then they are now?

Do you mean to tell me Joy is now charging $40 like gary for her lectures? It wouldn't really suprize me.

It's obvious they have worked hard to cover all tracks, although, to anyone who really looks closly at those forms, will see something worng with this picture.

I don't expect my $120 payment back, you're right Allen. MP is a buisness, why would they refund it? I stopped thinking they might refund, upon realizing how decieved I had been. The idea of the non refunded $120 had more to do with MP calling themselves "non-profit", and not so much an expectation of something that's not paraell in the 'business world'. Call me crazy, but I somehow thought MP was something other than just a business. I really was the fool, and you're right Allen, i should have seen MP as a business, out for profit, all along. What you call me whining, was nothing more than pointing out that no refund came, that's it. Idk where you get the accusion of "whining" from.

Furthermore, you misunderstood my point about guru bhakti. My point of that letter was to express the 'diverson' gary creates by calling Christianity a "personality cult" 3-4 times a seminar. Why does gary do that? Could it be so he's not looked at as an 'example'... Isn't he supposed to be a 'living example'. If someone went from his example, they would develop a horrible temper. Put down everyone they see as inferrior to them.. it just occured to me. Is that what you have been doing Allen? Are you following gary's 'example'? gary's motto ought to be: "Do as I say, not as I do"(sarcastically speaking). I highly recommend, that noone does either what he's said.. or done(from personal experience).

Allen, I havn't noticed you comment on Dennis's free 31,200 per year. Do you think he deserves all that free money because he's what?... Being a "Saint"? I know I've heard gary say that a true saint will work for their keep. I've also heard gary suggest the negitivity of using the spiritual current(shabda) to gain wealth. Yet gary pays himself $92,000 in 2005, earning it all how? It couldn't be by "channeling the shabda" during satsang. Since that would mean he's CHARGING students for supposidely "working for God". As I said before, I can understand gary using just what he needs to survive and continue his supposed mission to "help others".

Yet, paying himself $92,000 in '05..c'mon. Allen, have you not heard gary say he's beyond materal needs? So why the need for so much income? Especally relative to ALL other MP employees, except his wife(who recieves an avg of $4,000 less than him at all times, close enough to call it the same).

Does Dennis's free $31,200 per yr suggest that he's "earning his keep"? Not at all. It suggests that he's taking free money from MP funds so he never has to work, and have the "cushy life". I understand how convincing gary really is, and the reasioning you apply to all you say Allen. It's similar to what I may have argued while on the path. There's a quote from a book called "The Guru papers" that is extreemly profound. I trusted gary because I felt an undeniable 'energy' at the seminars. That was my initial "provisional proof".

In 'The Guru papers' on (p.68) there's a paragraph that has great meaning for me personally: "Is experiencing intense energy a sign of spirituality, or is the experience in the same vein as young ladies who swoon in the presence of rock stars?"

I highly recommend anyone looking for closure from a path such as MP, Eckankar, The Sonic Spectrum by Micheal Turner, John Rogers..etc to read "The Guru Papers". It's contents helped me a great deal in processing and letting go of what gary has said and done.

[deepcynic]

"unbiased eyes" ?

Right...

[allan1015]

deepcynic - you cant understand the concept because you are incapable of taking such a position.

Feel free to insult me and take your shots, the proof is on the page that your just one big ball of bigotry and prejudgment and have yet to produce anything of any tangible effort or show any intellectual capacity other then the drive-by-shooting at those people who don't agree with you.

You may be a cynic, you may be deeply cynical, about many things - but your also apparently incapable of any substance

Enjoy

[allan1015]

FormerChela

You have, in my humble opinion, been pretty off target on several things, not just these financial, but things like guru bhakti, etc.

And yet you are ready to condemn at the drop of anything you can try and hang your hat on.

We are intelligent beings and if you want to find a Pig in the 'data' I'm sure you will. Granted it wont be based on facts, but conjecture, and assumptions biased to get the result you seek.

As example: and just as example
"Thx for pointing that out.. boy are they slick. "

I see someone who is reporting facts on a federal form, perhaps even diligently, and you CHOOSE to spin that as 'slick'

The fact that I spent just about literally 5 minutes to clear up and dismiss some of the most egregious charges - well somehow that seems to slip by you, that you couldn't 'see' this, because it wasn't what you were looking for.

And to add to this 'blindness' you actually try to frame that letter of yours as an act of 'share what sticks out'
That letter was not some innocent sharing, it was a condemnation, you didn't share what sticks out you conjectured, concluded, condemned

And you still don't seem to see, or care to see, just how prejudiced/biased/ etc you are.

In any case, I wont be finding the time to entertain and deal with all of the speculation and conjecture your going through to make your case. You just know there **** in there, and so you will find it, or convince your self of finding it.

I don't expect my $120 payment back, you're right Allen. MP is a business, why would they refund it? I stopped thinking they might refund, upon realizing how deceived I had been. The idea of the non refunded $120 had more to do with MP calling themselves "non-profit", and not so much an expectation of something that's not para ell in the 'business world'.

Just more and more of this blind prejudice.
Please spin away of this as some business and profit motive, its all malarkey.

The truth is this practice would be followed by 98%+ of nay church, community group, guru, new age speaker, etc etc that would refund for a no show like this.

I think it is really the illustration of the 'mind to condemn' when you and others choose to make this some issue of MP integrity. You made a choice, you were responsible for not going, not calling ahead, not attending the phone seminars, etc.

I did not misunderstand your point about Guri Bhakti, you were way beyond some minor point you are now trying to claim, you basically called guru bhakti = cult of personality. You showed/demonstrated a very weak knowledge of this very core principal of just about any guru based path out there. Now you just back tracking.

And Sri Gary does not dis-Christianity 3 times or so every seminar. More total bull**** lies and hyper extended and out of context accusations.

I'm a busy guy, I had 3 nights without sleep in the past 8 days.

So I don't have much time or concern about how much Dennis makes. Not one single bit right now, I k now I couldn't live on what he makes.

I know this - MP is not turning me into some insulated loner, it is not driving me away from the my family - my following of the teachings, as 'I' understand them has help my marriage, it has driven me into my relationships, not away from.

I am not becoming anti-social, in fact I am more approached now by people who want to talk, I've had more people tell me I am a good listener then ever, people, of all stations, seeking my council on topics I've no idea why they look to me, its almost problematic in the other direction.

So all the people that speak of of these lost years and downsides, and all that - I simply don't get it - because its opposite from my experience, and Id rather be judging based on my experience then yours. That is the right thing to do isn't it?

I have read the Guru papers and referred to them many times. I've worked with and in anti-cult areas. To be blunt I am not making the same silly mistakes you are, and while I understand your need to see 'My" experience through your eyes, but making statements like

I understand how convincing Gary really is, and the reasoning you apply to all you say Allen.

I find to be highly egotistical on your part. The fact is you don't know me, you just know I find something I cherish in something you now find deplorable. To start assuming the explanation is I am just an earlier version of you is silly and a bit of hubris on your part.

As I've said before, I'm not into this because I find something compelling in the outer man. I am not goo goo gaga at the outer form, and I am not prone to putting gurus on a pedestal, that human tendency is niether fair to me or the guru. Though guru bhakti and following instructions is also easy for me. Respect is easy for the man, what he has achieved, how following his instructions are helping me. But that for which I look forward to meeting every morning, that for which I find connecting to to have brought joy, perspective, love into my life in greater amounts, is not found in any man, or woman, or any being.

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like nails
To someone with a grudge, you'll find all the fault you need.

[end_of_faith]

[qouted by Allan
Just so its clear I still find your messages filled of slanted views and you sound like a jilted girlfriend.]

So be it.


[I'm still waiting for facts, but given you have been flatly seen to lie and slant to your advantage - so many times, I really cant take any of your conjecture to have much merit other then your mad, upset and MP didn't work for you.]


Conjecture: an opinion or conclusion on the basis of incomplete information.

My conclusions of “MasterPath and Gary Olsen” are the result of serving “at his feet.” Just so we’re clear, Allan: I served MP before it even began. I was one of his first students. I was Gary and Joy Olsen’s “personal attendant.” I have forgotten more than you will ever know.



[Your claims that you know the past lives and reincarnation aspects of people posting here - just goers to show your brand of lunacy]


I made no such claim. You don't know the teachings, or the truth, or my point.



[I notice, again, that when faced with facts of some trivial think like repayment of missed seminar fees, you don't respond. You only act to spin these things as negatives and bad, but don't have any time for facts.]

You are correct: I don’t respond to 'trivial think' debates on the spiritual legitimacy of a refund to a student like what you posted. In my eye, these things ARE evidence of Gary Olsen as a false guru… to describe it as “bad” is complimentary.



[Your hypothesis that real gurus don't charge - more horsehit. Every organization of any major guru I know of charges in some way. Be it a yearly donation, a weekly tithing, a monthly dues, they all need and try to collect money/resources in some way. Your proposal that real gurus in real organizations should be free is idyllic new age bull**** that doesn't align with facts and just shows your still immature spiritual development.]


Hypothesis: a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

Read your history Allan. Study true mystics. You are the “one” who is buying all the new age bull**** as true. Immature spiritual development: Yes, I definitely believe that my spiritual growth was stunted, confined, and limited in following the MasterPath and Gary Olsen. You are kept in this locked vacuum of striving for something that is always beyond your reach. Remember Allan, you can only reflect the attainment of your teacher. And based on your reasoning skills, it’s clear who your teacher is.



[Its not a fact, its just a factoid you want to be true so it supports your need to be right and to get your ex lovers revenge on others.]


It’s neither. It’s the ancient wisdom and truth of all truly enlightened and spiritually-minded individuals. Heard of Ghandi. Read the Path of the Masters by Julian Johnson. Go deeper in your research Allan, beyond the crap MP is selling.




[let me know when you can have a real conversation about any point, you can even pick it, no shouting at me when you find I am showing you up, no calling me evil and brainwashed when you cant find any facts or logic, just a mature, real discussion. I don't think your up for it, but I'm open to trying, again.]


I don’t have to be “up” to engage in conversation with you. Your brain has been affected by what you believe to be true regarding MasterPath and Gary Olsen. Just like anyone who places their trust and faith in a person claiming to be something that he is not.



[In fact same invitation is open to anyone. ]


I’m not sure you’re gonna get many takers Allan. Hey, aren’t you supposed to be sitting in a chair receiving your second initiation? Or, are they giving it over the phone? What fruit did you buy? Did you enjoy your 3 day rice/carrot/water fast? What new perceptions did you experience during your mini-purification of all bodies before receiving the sacred rite of passage from the outer to the inner? Ooops, my mistake…that doesn’t happen until at least 12 to 25 years on MasterPath. Yep, you’ve got lots of time to make those monthly installment payments toward your freedom and self-awareness, Allan. Do you really buy that is God’s Divine Plan? That people should pay money for their spiritual freedom, liberation, and salvation? I shouldn't even ask the question because so many of us have been where you are Allan. I really do feel for you.

You think I'm mad, upset, and a jilted ex-lover type....no, I'm deeply disturbed that there are people like Gary Olsen who prey on the vulnerable sincerity in seekers of truth. I find it beyond reprehensible. And I will speak out against it at every turn I get. It's not anger that I am experiencing Allan, it goes much deeper than that emotion.

Let’s see if Allan can hold a mature, non-defensive, thoughtful discussion on a subject that is clearly close to his heart, as it is to each of us.

[deepcynic]

allan, I don't have to put much effort into this. People ARE following the money and it is you that will have to apologize when Gary and his grifter bunch that invented MasterPath are exposed.

Now, go back to your keyboard and spend inordinate amounts of your life defending the obviously corrupt organization that gives you so much joy.

[end_of_faith]

Originally Posted by deepcynic

allan, I don't have to put much effort into this. People ARE following the money and it is you that will have to apologize when Gary and his grifter bunch that invented MasterPath are exposed.

Now, go back to your keyboard and spend inordinate amounts of your life defending the obviously corrupt organization that gives you so much joy.

Ohhh... this made me laugh so hard... thanks so much.... levity is much needed through this type of experience. Allan, well, he's just spouting the mind control he thinks he understands in reverse...

[deepcynic]

I am glad to offer some grins for you end_of_faith. You seem to have suffered a lot of pain from this scam called MasterPath, but have come to know it for what it is.

Folks like allan will likely never get it, he calls me a bigot for reasons I don't understand, but I think he is a fool, for reasons he will likely never understand.

Maybe it is that 'mind control' that you speak of.

[deepcynic]

Truth will win out and Gary Olsen will be exposed as the fraud he is.

Till then he will continue to fool people and take their money, and mine as a taxpayer.

Those that defend him should be held accountable too!

Forgiveness may be given to complete fools like allan, if they finally come out of their fog and apologize for enabling Gary to dupe others.