Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I was refering to the more recent formulation by Dr. William Lane Craig. I think the premises are valid and run in line with the accepted standard physics regarding the orgin of the universe.
I would highly recommend (becasuse I think you would be very interested) in going to his website to read his popular and scholarly articles - you will have to registar - but it is free. Reasonable Faith:
Particularly the one titled 'Must the Begining of the Universe have a Personal Cause? A Rejoinder'
The whole purpose of this thread is to let theists to present their own versions God in a logical way, by provide a testable evidence statement like:
If no one can do that, then the thread does conclude itself.
So, go ahead.
You have been presented with the entire scientific compilation of evidence . . . you just refuse to accept it as God because you are fixated on the specific guesses about the ADDED features of God in the religions you despise. You think that by rejecting the specific stupid guesses about the ADDED features of God you are rejecting God. You are NOT . . . and you CANNOT. God exists . . . we all just ADD different features depending on our personal preferences.
I do not make any conclusion; like everyone else, I am waiting for theists to make his/her own case. Then, the thread itself shows the conclusion to everyone out there.
MysticPhD,
Here's some exerpts from one of your posts in reponse to my post:
[quote]Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
MysticPhD wrote:
Of course if something doesn't exist in the first place then there is certainly no evidence either for or against it so it's impossible for me to provide you with any evidence that proves that God does not exist.
Stop and THINK . . . Montana. I am asking you to provide evidence against the existence of those attributes that DO EXIST in Nature . . . as the foundation for rejecting them . . . or abandon the default!
I had politely answered your question and was even complimentary in my original post and you responded with a rather snotty remark. Let me elaborate on my thoughts. All of your posts suggest that we live in a universe that might be thought of as a God as opposed to just calling it nature and that it functions in many ways that are similar to a human mind. That would include consciousness and a sense of purpose. You also suggested that all of the physical matter in the universe such as the stars, planets, comets and even small mundane objects like a stone or a wheelbarrow full of gravel are all interconnected and play some role in this universal brain or consciousness. Here's my problem with that theory. We can examine a brain and clearly see an extremely complex organ that functions in an organized manner. Various parts of the brain are associated with memory, emotions and everything else that allows us to be conscious of our own existence.
Now let's compare that to the universe. We see absolutely no pattern of organization in solar systems or anything else in the universe that would suggest that the heavenly bodies are behaving like brain cells. Also, you provide no evidence that any observable phenomenon might be occuring that could actually be the functioning of this universal brain. More importantly, when we acknowledge that our brains came into existence from millions of years of evolution it brings up the obvious question, how did this universal consciousness come into being in the first place? I've read all of your posts and I know you're a bright guy with some interesting ideas but you haven't presented a case to support your point of view. I also think that the points I've just made are enough to support a default position that there is no God unless you can come up with something to refute them. Universal consciousness is wild speculation.
I had politely answered your question and was even complimentary in my original post and you responded with a rather snotty remark.
Troop alerted me to that and I thought I apologized. Apparently it was not adequate. I apologize Montana . . it was not intentional.
Quote:
Let me elaborate on my thoughts. All of your posts suggest that we live in a universe that might be thought of as a God as opposed to just calling it nature and that it functions in many ways that are similar to a human mind. That would include consciousness and a sense of purpose. You also suggested that all of the physical matter in the universe such as the stars, planets, comets and even small mundane objects like a stone or a wheelbarrow full of gravel are all interconnected and play some role in this universal brain or consciousness. Here's my problem with that theory. We can examine a brain and clearly see an extremely complex organ that functions in an organized manner. Various parts of the brain are associated with memory, emotions and everything else that allows us to be conscious of our own existence.
Now let's compare that to the universe. We see absolutely no pattern of organization in solar systems or anything else in the universe that would suggest that the heavenly bodies are behaving like brain cells. Also, you provide no evidence that any observable phenomenon might be occuring that could actually be the functioning of this universal brain. More importantly, when we acknowledge that our brains came into existence from millions of years of evolution it brings up the obvious question, how did this universal consciousness come into being in the first place? I've read all of your posts and I know you're a bright guy with some interesting ideas but you haven't presented a case to support your point of view. I also think that the points I've just made are enough to support a default position that there is no God unless you can come up with something to refute them. Universal consciousness is wild speculation.
OK . . . Montana . . what is YOUR explanation for the source of the undetectable universal field that MUST exist or our science would not be possible? Obviously if you own the default you have a better exemplar for the field than consciousness . . . which is ubiquitous on this planet at least. That makes your last sentence absurd.
OK . . . Montana . . what is YOUR explanation for the source of the undetectable universal field that MUST exist or our science would not be possible? Obviously if you own the default you have a better exemplar for the field than consciousness . . . which is ubiquitous on this planet at least.
I don't know the answer to your question. I'm assuming it's related to physics which is not one of my strongest subjects. I'll be the first to admit that there's a great deal we don't know about physics and the universe and I don't claim to be an expert on what is known. I do know that consciousness is associated with biological life and is the result of evolution which seems to be a unique phenomenon in nature. Even though our planet is filled with billions of conscious minds I don't believe that there is an invisible interconnectness that we're all apart of and that we can only communicate with each other through our senses. I can't even conceive of nonliving physical objects such as telephone poles or pickup trucks as being connected to anything so I only associate consciousness with life.
The problem I'm having with your concept of a universal intelligence is that I just don't see any evidence that it exists and there doesn't seem to be any explanation as to where it could have come from.
It might be useful to remember there is a scientific principle that the very act of observing affects the nature of the observed. So hard science itself has its own "leap of faith" to make. That said, there is measurable, mathematical pattern in the universe that I'm happy to regard as "Godly". Speculation can be meaningful.
Some think there is a universe's son die on a cross (made of wood). So much "conscious universe".
Maybe milky way has another son die on a piece of tree-wood budlight years away. That's not random cause, and therefore lot of people keeps drawing conclusions out it. "pay church, or go to hell".
The problem I'm having with your concept of a universal intelligence is that I just don't see any evidence that it exists and there doesn't seem to be any explanation as to where it could have come from.
The central problem all materialists seem to have is letting go of the idea that there is ANYTHING physical. youknow that "molecules" are vibratory events in time, "atoms" are as well, so are "particles" . . . as is what we call pure energy. There is nothing physical . . . just aggregated vibratory energy events at various levels ("spheres") of aggregation (like traffic jams). Physics only knows how to use "measurable" energy aggregates that have standing wave-like stable properties (what we call "material" objects) enabling us to predict the results of their interactions (resonances/dissonances) mathematically. For example . . . WE are a standing wave composite . . . sort of a "mini-universe" of all the vibrational energy components that comprise us down to the sub-atomic level. If this seems too abstract for you to digest . . . it means your concept of a "physical" world where "energy" is just something used to do things is probably too strong.
Some think there is a universe's son die on a cross (made of wood). So much "conscious universe".
Maybe milky way has another son die on a piece of tree-wood budlight years away. That's not random cause, and therefore lot of people keeps drawing conclusions out it. "pay church, or go to hell".
Clearly you're out of your league here, Bud . . . go annoy the religious fundamentalists with your hatred for their evil religions.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
