The Lie Of Flat Earth Easily Debunked By God's Word (Jerusalem, Israel)

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

There is no place in Scripture that claims the world/globe of the earth is flat. Not one place can that be found in all the word.

It no more says the world is flat anymore than it says it is round. It would be handy if it used the word 'flat' but it doesn't.

But we do know that the other nations thought the world was flat. Why should the Bible - writers suppose any different?

Believers say that God knew better and try to argue evidence that the Bible shows a round earth. It does not.

"The Vault of Heaven
The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word “firmament” appears in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning “beaten out.” In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?”
Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:

Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”
Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”
Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”
Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”
Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]...”
If these verses are about a mere illusion of a vault, they are surely much ado about nothing. Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky. Other passages complete the picture of the sky as a lofty, physical dome. God “sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth [chuwg], whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the skies [shamayim] like a curtain, he spreads them out like a tent to live in...[Isaiah 40:22].” Chuwg literally means “circle” or “encompassed.” By extension, it can mean roundness, as in a rounded dome or vault. Job 22:14 says God “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven [chuwg].” In both verses, the use of chuwg implies a physical object, on which one can sit and walk. Likewise, the context in both cases requires elevation. In Isaiah, the elevation causes the people below to look small as grasshoppers. In Job, God's eyes must penetrate the clouds to view the doings of humans below. Elevation is also implied by Job 22:12: “Surely God is at the zenith of the heavens [shamayim] and looks down on all the stars, high as they are.”
This picture of the cosmos is reinforced by Ezekiel's vision. The Hebrew word raqiya appears five times in Ezekiel, four times in Ezekiel 1:22-26 and once in Ezekiel 10:1. In each case the context requires a literal vault or dome. The vault appears above the “living creatures” and glitters “like a sheet of ice.” Above the vault is a throne of sapphire (or lapis lazuli). Seated on the throne is “a form in human likeness,” which is radiant and “like the appearance of the glory of the Lord.” In short, Ezekiel saw a vision of God sitting throned on the vault of heaven, as described in Isaiah 40:22.
The Shape of the Earth
Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”

The Flat-Earth Bible.


Genesis is perfectly consistent with this.

""And the earth was (8804) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved (8764) upon the face of the waters."

We have a shapeless lump of water.

"And God said (8799) , Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide (8688) the waters from the waters."

The water is divided into two.

"And God made (8799) the firmament, and divided (8686) the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

We have an upper and lower body of waters with a 'firmament' in between

"And God called (8799) the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

This 'firmament' is 'heaven' and there are evidently waters above.

"And God said (8799) , Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together (8735) unto one place, and let the dry land appear (8735) ...And God called (8799) the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called (8804) he Seas:"

The lower waters are pulled together to reveal dry land.

The Flood tells us a bit more about how this was set up..
"And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth....
And God remembered (8799) Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass (8686) over the earth, and the waters asswaged (Shakak -
to subside, abate, decrease
(Qal) to abate
(Hiphil) to allay"

It is implied that the waters dried up. In fact it would take more than a wind to dry up mountain -deep waters. It would make more sense if they were blown back into these reservoirs (fountains of the deep) which fed the 'lower' waters and which could be released over a flat earth to make a flood, which otherwise is hard to explain.

So in the end, the burden of proof is on YOU to argue that the Bible somehow differs from the view of the time, that the earth was flat. You have not been able to do that. The Bible is not specific of course, but the overall picture is more consistent with a flat earth than with a round one. You have certainly not been able to 'debunk' the Biblical flat earth.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

It no more says the world is flat anymore than it says it is round. It would be handy if it used the word 'flat' but it doesn't.

But we do know that the other nations thought the world was flat. Why should the Bible - writers suppose any different?

'Tis late and I can't reply to your whole post, but you cannot prove by historical records that any nation believed the world was flat before they believed it was a globe. Dark ages cause ignorance, and God causes dark ages on purpose so that His plan for salvation of the seed of Adam will be fulfilled.
I can show you the timeline of history from the patriarchs before the flood to after Babel in various books which show that they indeed understood the world was a globe.
The race of Adam/Man was scattered all over the globe after the fall of the tower of Babel, in the lifetime of Peleg, beginning with the fall of the tower of Babel. Also, in Peleg's lifetime, the land mass was divided to the continents we have now, and during his and his brother's lifetime the years of the individuals lives of the race of Adam were shortened.

Jasher 7:19,20
These are the generations of Shem; Shem begat Arpachshad and Arpachshad begat Shelach, and Shelach begat Eber and to Eber were born two children, the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the sons of men were divided, and in the latter days, the earth was divided.
And the name of the second was Yoktan, meaning that in his day the lives of the sons of men were diminished and lessened.

Jasher 39: 35-39 And the Lord smote the three divisions that were there, and he punished them according to their works and designs; those who said, We will ascend to heaven and serve our gods, became like apes and elephants; and those who said, We will smite the heaven with arrows, the Lord killed them, one man through the hand of his neighbor; and the third division of those who said, We will ascend to heaven and fight against him, the Lord scattered them throughout the earth.
And they ceased building the city and the tower; therefore he called that place Babel, for there the Lord confounded the Language of the whole earth; behold it was at the east of the land of Shinar.
And as to the tower which the sons of men built, the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up one third part thereof, and a fire also descended from heaven and burned another third, and the other third is left to this day, and it is of that part which was aloft, and its circumference is three days' walk.
And many of the sons of men died in that tower, a people without number.

In Jasher's beginning the land mass was one, with seas and some islands; but in Peleg's days the land mass was divided. Therefore ignorance of technology was scattered and fragmented over the earth, with knowledge lost. That was God's plan, as He said, when He confounded the language.

[TRANSPONDER]

It can be proved by the Greek writings from the 4th c. BC onwards in which they argued about the common view of a flat earth and some produced evidence that it was round.

That is documentary proof of a belief in a flat earth, right from early times.

In Jasher's beginning the land mass was one, with seas and some islands; but in Peleg's days the land mass was divided.

If you think about it, that works even better with the idea of a flat earth.

"The Sumerians and later babylonians saw the earth as flat. The earth was a flat area between sky and underworld. the Egyptians also saw the earth-god (Geb) sprawling flat with the sky-goddess stretched out above, supported on four posts at the four corners of the world. The Hebrews followed the same plan with a flat disc covered by a domed firmament over which God presided. References in the OT show a firmament which contains the heavenly bodies, and resting on pillars or mountains. Numbers mentions 'sheol' beneath the earth. All very much in line with the cosmology of Egypt and Mesopotamia.

The flat earth idea was also prevalent in the Greek world with Thales, Anaximander and Anaximenes proposing discs floating on water, a cylinder with the world on the flat end. With the Pythagoreans the idea of a globe was first suggested, though Anaxagoras, Leucippus and Democritus were still arguing for a cylindrical earth in the 5th c. BC. However, by the 4th c. Plato and Aristotle were writing of a globe and the thinkers of the succeding centuries (Eudoxas, Euclid, Aristarchus and Aristotle) lthought in terms of a globular earth. It was Eratosthenes of Alexandria who first gave a good measurement of the circumference though there had been previous attempts. All these ideas were codified by Ptolemy who (in Syntaxis) showed a geocentric solar system with a round earth." (ArqNotes)

"The ancient Mesopotamians, and then the Hebrews, believed that the earth was a flat circular disc surrounded by a saltwater sea. The habitable earth was a single giant continent inside this sea, and floated on a second sea, the freshwater apsu, which supplied the water in springs, wells and rivers and was connected with the saltwater sea. The sky was a solid disk above the earth, curved to touch the earth at its rim, with the dwelling of the gods above the sky or on top of the solid sky, and sometimes the gods were denizens of the heights bewteen the earth and the sky. So far as can be deduced from clues in the Tanakh's Torah and in the New Testament's Matthew 4:8, the ancient Hebrew geography was identical with that of the Babylonians: a flat circular earth floating above a freshwater sea, surrounded by a saltwater sea, with a solid sky-dome (raqia, the "firmament") above. It is the creation of this world which Enûma Eliš and Genesis 1 describe" (wiki)

There is a clay map in the British Museum showing a flat earth - disk. There are Egyptian wall- paintings showing the sky Goddess arched over the earth.

Reading the Mesopotamian Creation epic shows clear documentary evidence of the idea of a rather small flat earth with a dome over it. Reading Genesis with that knowledge shows clearly how the writers of Genesis followed the plan of a flat, circular earth surounded by mountains and with a dome above.

"He split her up like a flat fish into two halves;
One half of her he stablished as a covering for heaven.
He fixed a bolt, he stationed a watchman,
And bade them not to let her waters come forth.
He passed through the heavens, he surveyed the regions thereof,
And over against the Deep he set the dwelling of Nudimmud.
And the lord measured the structure of the Deep,
And he founded E-sara, a mansion like unto it.
The mansion E-sara which he created as heaven,
He caused Anu, Bel, and Ea in their districts to inhabit.
THE FIFTH TABLET
He (Marduk) made the stations for the great gods;
The stars, their images, as the stars of the Zodiac, he fixed.
He ordained the year and into sections he divided it;
For the twelve months he fixed three stars.
After he had ... the days of the year ... images,
He founded the station of Nibir [the planet Jupiter] to determine their bounds;
That none might err or go astray,
He set the station of Bel and Ea along with him.
He opened great gates on both sides,
He made strong the bolt on the left and on the right.
In the midst thereof he fixed the zenith;
The Moon-god he caused to shine forth, the night he entrusted to him.
He appointed him, a being of the night, to determine the days;
Every month without ceasing with the crown he covered him, saying:
"At the beginning of the month, when thou shinest upon the land,
Thou commandest the horns to determine six days,
And on the seventh day to divide the crown.
On the fourteenth day thou shalt stand opposite, the half....
When the Sun-god on the foundation of heaven...thee,
The ... thou shalt cause to ..., and thou shalt make his...
... unto the path of the Sun-god shalt thou cause to draw nigh, (Enuma Elish) Babylonian creation myth.

"Then he reached Mount Mashu,
which daily guards the rising and setting of the Sun,
above which only the dome of the heavens reaches,
and whose flank reaches as far as the Netherworld below,"


The Flood (worth reading to see how closely the Genesis account derives from it - even sending out the birds from the 'Ark')

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/...mesh/tab11.htm

has the same idea of the dikes (fountains of the deeps) being lifted to let the water rush in. In Genesis the wind blows to push it back.

"Just as dawn began to glow
there arose from the horizon a black cloud.
Adad rumbled inside of it,
before him went Shullat and Hanish,
heralds going over mountain and land.
Erragal pulled out the mooring poles,
forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow.
The Anunnaki lifted up the torches,
setting the land ablaze with their flare.
Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens,
and turned to blackness all that had been light.
The... land shattered like a... pot.
All day long the South Wind blew ...,
blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water,
overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow,
they could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the Flood,
and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu."
(Epic of Gilgamesh)

[rifleman]

The current measured built-up unrelieved stress in the San Andreas fault is about 10 feet. That means, if it was allowed to move freely, on ball bearings, to a new stable position, it would advance up the coast 10 feet.

Of course, such nice gentle changes do not happen, and the sudden movement of, say, 10 feet over, let's say, an hour, would totally devastate most all of the West Coast, including YSM's home town. That's a fact, and if she's ever been in even a minor earthquake, she'd agree. I was in the Northridge Earthquake in SoCal and it apparently only produced a lateral fault displacement of several inches. Not feet.

Now, we have a statement from folks who were obviously NOT geologists that clearly state the entire planet reformed over just a few hundred years from a solitary land mass (Pangea) into the continents we see today.

Sad bit of geologic illiteracy. If it had happened as they so naively described, they would have been picking themselves off the floor every few years with tremors magnitude 10 or 11, enough to demolish every temple, pyramid and mud hut on the planet. There would be literally nothing left of the country surrounding the Mediterranean, much less anywhere else.

And of course, there's always the scholarly and academic Chinese writings, which, oddly, don't mention any of this, even tho' their written and accurate history, even charting astronomical events [that we have since back-checked as to time and found to be very accurate] has proven to be quite reliable. Unlike the bible.

So what, exactly, does our heroine have to say about the Chinese version of history? I'd love to know.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by rifleman

So what, exactly, does our heroine have to say about the Chinese version of history? I'd love to know.

The earliest one is recorded in the ancient Chinese Oracle Bone writing and agrees with Genesis to Revelation. That writing for their language was invented before they [long after] lost the meaning of the Ancient Chinese Border Sacrifice which was offered once, yearly, as an Atonement for the nation, before Shang-Di, God of heaven, by the ruler of each Chinese dynasty for 4,000 years; and offered by the ruler who was serving as patriarchal high preist and father of the nation [the office of firstborn], in the same manner as the, later, High Prisst in Israel served, who also made Atonement once, yearly, as a rehearsal of that final one which was to come for all men on the face of the globe, who would ever, or had ever, been born of Adam's race.
Chinese history before the Tower of Babel is one history with the sons of Noah and their descendants, as is written in the Book of Jasher.
There is no written Chinese history older than the Tower of Babel, for it is from there that the tribes were separated by the division of the tongue into the 70 [which grew to the over 5,000 over time]. From that time the tribes began to scatter over the face of the globe and the tribes began to invent writing for their divided tongues as soon as they set up their own governments.
There is a Chinese legend that Noah invented their written language, and that is possible, because Noah lived long after the flood -and was thier ancestor, too.


Whoever of Noah's descendants who was the inventor of Chinese Oracle Bone writing [if not Noah, himself] was well acquainted with theTrue Creator, the One God, and with His promises of the Redeemer to redeem us, who was promised from the time of the fall, and they were familiar with the flood of Noah.
The characters used in that writing tell the entire story of creation as it is written in Genesis, and tells of the [then future] coming Son of God as Redeemer/the Lamb of God, who would make one a righteous, acceptable person before the True God, Shang-Di -who was God in heave, and do so as the Son of God.
That Oracle bone writing was only invented after the fall of the tower of Babel, when the mother tongue was divided and the sons of Adam were scattered over the face of the globe.

Faith of Our Fathers: God in Ancient China, by Chan Kei Thong with Charlene L. Fu, Beijing: Dong Fang ...
A student atheist who became a Christian in college in Singapore, Thong says that it wasn’t until 1996 that he realized during a visit to the Temple of Heaven that whatever had been worshiped there originally wasn’t a pagan idol, because there wasn’t a single idol throughout the Temple area. His motivation to begin the research that led to the book, however, derived from his sense of sadness at a common Chinese misperception—common even today—that Christianity is a “Western” religion and that “God” is a Western concept....


The question arises therefore, if the ancient Chinese worshiped God, why did they depart from that practice and admit a pantheon of Buddhist and Taoist deities in the course of their long history? Thong and Fu argue that the plethora of lesser deities arose during a turbulent period of China’s history, the so-called Warring States period (475–221 BC). At that point, China also became enamored of the dragon, says Thong, and worship of the creator became worship of the creature. It was downhill from then onwards in China’s cosmology, the authors argue...

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

It can be proved by the Greek writings from the 4th c. BC onwards in which they argued about the common view of a flat earth and some produced evidence that it was round.

The Greek tribes histories are bare boned in Jasher, and they were just small tribes of Javan's line when Egypt was in her glory and was buying cocaine, tobacco, and corn [a genetically mutated hybrid, created by ancient men with understanding of genetics] from the western colonies across the ocean, traded by ancient sea merchants, who also who brought grain [and other goods] from the Nile, to sell to the western colonies.
The Greeks were not in their glory until long after Solomon had made Israel the most glorious nation on earth, and "the head of nations", when she was true to her God and Redeemer, "YHWH".
Solomon's ships went around the globe, trading, also, and even to Australia, as true ancient history proves, in its records.

[rifleman]

So we have a language system already in recorded use 3500 years ago*, about 1000 years before the time of the biblical flood, and there was a continuum of academic and scholarly writing, intact and preserved amongst the Chinese. You now claim that perhaps Noah himself invented it?

(* which means it had existed for millenia prior to that. Cultures do not invent a language and script and concurrently and inmmediately start a formal library system to maintain a secure record of their writings. By the time the ramblings of some philosopher are written on parchment or bone or whatever and then set aside for safekeeping, the entire communications system had to have been in existance for a long long time. This is only logical.)

They do not write of, nor did their culture disappear as a result of, a global inundation. How is that possible? And who re-established the identical form of script immediately after the flood, assuming God's word of doing away with every living being was true?

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by rifleman

So we have a language system already in recorded use 3500 years ago*, about 1000 years before the time of the biblical flood, and there was a continuum of academic and scholarly writing, intact and preserved amongst the Chinese. You now claim that perhaps Noah himself invented it?

(* which means it had existed for millenia prior to that. Cultures do not invent a language and script and concurrently and inmmediately start a formal library system to maintain a secure record of their writings. By the time the ramblings of some philosopher are written on parchment or bone or whatever and then set aside for safekeeping, the entire communications system had to have been in existance for a long long time. This is only logical.)

They do not write of, nor did their culture disappear as a result of, a global inundation. How is that possible? And who re-established the identical form of script immediately after the flood, assuming God's word of doing away with every living being was true?

I do believe that I have pointed out to you before that the flood was 4500 + years ago. Please take note.

There is only one language that was written before the flood, the Edenic -early Hebrew. All languages of the world are confounded from that one mother tongue and have no earlier beginning than the immediate years after the fall of the tower of Babel. Abram/AbraHAm was 50 years old when that tower fell, and 40 years later he was in Egypt, giving the King Osiris' counselors wisdom, from the book of Enoch, as he left record of in his own writings, and which writings are in the Genesis Apocryphon, Dead Sea Scrolls collection.

After the fall of the tower and the wisdom Abram gave the Egyptian counselors to Osiris, Egypt entered into a time of worship of the One True God, Amen, the Hidden God in heaven, as He is written of in the book of 1 Enoch. Jesus Christ states that He, Himself, is the Amen, now revealed, as Encoh said He would be.

[Gplex]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

I do believe that I have pointed out to you before that the flood was 4500 + years ago. Please take note.

There is only one language that was written before the flood, the Edenic -early Hebrew. All languages of the world are confounded from that one mother tongue and have no earlier beginning than the immediate years after the fall of the tower of Babel. Abram/AbraHAm was 50 years old when that tower fell, and 40 years later he was in Egypt, giving the King Osiris' counselors wisdom, from the book of Enoch, as he left record of in his own writings, and which writings are in the Genesis Apocryphon, Dead Sea Scrolls collection.

After the fall of the tower and the wisdom Abram gave the Egyptian counselors to Osiris, Egypt entered into a time of worship of the One True God, Amen, the Hidden God in heaven, as He is written of in the book of 1 Enoch. Jesus Christ states that He, Himself, is the Amen, now revealed, as Encoh said He would be.

5500 years ago.
Plus there is no evidence for this flood.

[Kele]

The Tărtăria tablets, discovered in Tărtăria, Romania and quite possibly the oldest writing sample found to date. 14C dating places these tablets right about 5500 B.C.E.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Tartaria_tablets.png/250px-Tartaria_tablets.png (broken link)