Don't understand anti-theists, but maybe it's the way I was raised (salvation, Buddhist)

[victorianpunk]

I cannot, for the life of me, understand the angst, bitterness, and contempt some people have for all religions period...but I think I get where it comes from. So many times I say "God" on this board and some people say "SCREW ALL YOU FUNDAMENTALISTS CHRISTIANS YOU ALL SUCK blah blah blah..." Well, I am not a fundie, and I am a Gnostic so, in a way, I am not even a Christian. I see so much hostility, and I think it might be the way people were raised.

Usually, I start out just talking about God in a general sense, considering I am univeralist, and people just insert the mean fundie God into what ever it was I was saying, and I say that is not what I mean and an argument ensues and, sooner or later, someone admits that they come from either a strict fundamentalist family or lived in that kind of an area (like the Bible Belt) and hence, that is the origin of all their bitterness.

Thing is, I think I approach things differently because I was raised by people who believed in God, but not, necessarily, religion. My mother was out of the picture when I was eleven, and even when she was in the picture, religion was more a comforting statue on the dresser and Catholic mass on Christmas. My father, who took over when I was eleven, HATED religion, but prayed to God every night. He always said things like "that damn bible was written 2,000 years ago, how the hell do you know what it says is 100% true?" Yet, he had absolute, unwavering faith in God.

Later, I explored, which my father encouraged...keep in mind he was far from an intellectual, but was a trucker with a highschool education, a southern accent and a bottle of Colt 45 ever present in his hand. Well, I explored, and, living in New Jersey, were fundies are about as common as blizzards are in Peurto Rico, religious people were always pretty enlightened seeming. You had no choice, around here, but to kind of get along and respect other beliefs.

I met Wiccans (and became one for a time) Buddhist, Hindues, Sihks, Muslims, Jews and all kinds of Christians (but I did not meet a fundie in te flesh until I was about nineteen, and all the Christians around here are pretty liberal) as well as New Age people and Deists. I barely ever met anyone in my youth to teen years who didn't believe in God. Even the kids who wore all black and liked Marlyn Manson (okay, I did wear black, but I always hated Manson) believed in God, but, like my father, they hated religion.

So, when I hear people condemning religion and belief in God...I just feel as if they are not talking about the same thing I have experienced. I have always been fascinated with God and the connection people can have to him (Mysticism) ever sense I was a kid...looking back, I think the reason I loved Star Wars so much was because of Master Yodi, with his Zen like robe, talking about the Force, which later sparked an intrest in Taoism, since they are both pantheistic, seemingly impersonal versions of divinity.

God was never about fear and control, not about going to church and sin this and burn in hell that, but God was an adventure, a mystery, and a source of wonder. Finding God was like a treasure hunt...when I was thirteen, I found him it in the pagan pantheons, when I was fourteen, I found it in folk magick, and in the Tao te Ching. When I was fifteen, I found it in the Bible, the Quaran, and Dhammpada, and when I was seventeen I think, I found it in Rigveda, and I always found it in nature and in people. God was everywhere and it was a joy to find and learn about.



I mean, when I see movies like "Jesus Camp" I just think "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT!?" and can't quite fathom it...but when I see a movie like "V for Vendetta" in which one of the characters, a lesbian who is killed by a fascist government, says "my grandmother always told me God is in the rain". I SO understand it.


I think because of my upbringing I just am not seeing religion, faith, and God the same way some of these Angst driven people are. You know, as funny as it sounds, when ever I think of the study of religion, for some reason, "It's a kind of Magick" by Queen popps into my head. That's what I was raised to believe God is: not dogma, not control, not fear of hell...but just...MAGICK




YouTube - Queen - A Kind Of Magic


So, excuse me for being baffled by this intense hatred some seem to have for God and Faith.

[sanspeur]

No, actually it is probably the way you were programed. Some of us have managed to shake off, or overcome our our programming, and sadly some have not. It takes logic and critical thinking, and that seems to be very difficult for some, although as a logical thinker I have no idea why that is. Mythology, magic and the supernatural are not logical or reasonable concepts.

The hatred you perceive is all in your illogical perception of what others think...Your thinking is poisoned by your beliefs. Atheists do not hate God or your faith in myths. They just think that your faith and belief are mistaken.

[Thomas R.]

From what I can tell by studies and behaviors I see here a certain number of people have difficulty with concepts like allegory or metaphor. They fail to see patterns even when they exist and tend to be literal minded. Others are upset enough by things like Hell or sin they need to accept anything that will take them away from that.

In some cases this is due to lowered dopamine levels. Hence sarcasm and anger, even if it does not appear that way to them, are exhibited. In other cases it is possible Asperger's disorder may be a factor. Granted there are many Christians with Asperger's, but they tend to gravitate into Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism or Anglicanism. (Denominations that are generally not "touchy-feely" and have some interest in calendar calculations. Denominations we also rarely see in religion discussions here) And then there's the issue of some anti-theists being emotionally retarded from roughly the age of twelve. This is not that uncommon among people who were bright as children. (Many anti-theists seem to be former gifted children. In a few cases they are former gifted children who did not really become anything that great in adulthood. I don't think Norbert Weiner or von Neumann was ever aggressively anti-theist in the manner you see here. Sam Harris would likely be of little interest without his anti-theism)

To a degree I am sympathetic to this. Judging by a test I took I score high on "Asperger's Quotient" to the point of nearly having it. Also I was called a "whiz kid" at 13 and received about the highest ACT score in my school's history. I don't have the low dopamine levels though. I'm naturally an "up" personality. Possibly this is why atheism didn't really take in me even though I certainly have considered it at times. (No longer, atheism is effectively dead in me and I can't see it coming back) I am able to see the patterns that actually exist, trust people, and I am happy much of the time. My understanding of literature or legend is actually not that great, but I did top my class in European Literature so it's adequate to good.

So anyway possibly they are not really angry or hateful from their perspective. They might be legitimately confused. Confusion can cause frustration and irritability. (For example jigsaw puzzles frustrate me and I would likely grow annoyed trying one. Possibly they react to God in a similar fashion) I have trouble believing anyone could honestly be as confused as they claim, but the mind can do all kinds of things so maybe I am too quick to dismiss the possibility.

[Melvin.George]

Originally Posted by sanspeur

No, actually it is probably the way you were programed. Some of us have managed to shake off, or overcome our our programming, and sadly some have not. It takes logic and critical thinking, and that seems to be very difficult for some, although as a logical thinker I have no idea why that is. Mythology, magic and the supernatural are not logical or reasonable concepts.

The hatred you perceive is all in your illogical perception of what others think...Your thinking is poisoned by your beliefs. Atheists do not hate God or your faith in myths. They just think that your faith and belief are mistaken.

What the folks who are sporting childhood brainwashing should try to do is realize that since primitive mankind began to use his developing imagination we've had so called gods.

More than twenty so called saviors dating back 1000 years or more BC laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven. The Jesus story came along about a thousand years later. They simply need to expand their research to find the truth. I'm agnostic...I don't know what happens when a man dies and they don't either.

This is a list of the so called man gods and doesn't include Horus of Egypt...the one most similar to Jesus.

• Adad of Assyria
• Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece
• Alcides of Thebes
• Atys of Phrygia
• Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phoenicia
• Bali of Afghanistan
• Buddha Sakia of India
• Cadmus of Greece
• Crite of Chaldea
• Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam
• Divine Teacher of Plato
• Fohi and Tien of China
• Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico
• Hesus of Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids
• Hil and Feta of the Mandaites
• Ischy of the Island of Formosa
• Ixion and Quirnus of Rome
• Holy One of Xaca
• Indra of Tibet
• Jao of Nepal
• Krishna of Hindostan
• Mikado of the Sintoos
• Mohammed, or Mahomet, of Arabia
• Odin of the Scandinavians
• Prometheus of Caucasus
• Salivahana of Bermuda
• Thammuz of Syria
• Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls
• Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
• Wittoba of the Bilingonese
• Xamolxis of Thrace
• Zoar of the Bonzes
• Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia
• Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt

[Gplex]

I have not met one person who will reject every definition of "god".

If you want to reduce the term "antitheist" to someone who attacks religion, or a belief in a deity, then anyone who "attacks" the FSM is and antitheist.

[Melvin.George]

Originally Posted by Gplex

I have not met one person who will reject every definition of "god".

If you want to reduce the term "antitheist" to someone who attacks religion, or a belief in a deity, then anyone who "attacks" the FSM is an antitheist.

Makes sense. I just like to let them know that anyone who has actually researched the history of religions of the world might come up with a different common denominator.

[Lamplight]

I think a lot of the anger you seem to pick up on is caused by the fact that many of us are constantly surrounded in our daily lives by only Christian fundamentalists. Some of us were raised by them, and some of us have probably experienced very few religious people in our lives who weren't rabid fundamentalists. If I'm around family they're all like this. When I'm at work everyone else is like this. When I'm shopping, eating, etc. most of the people I encounter are far-right fundamentalists, and it usually doesn't take long to find out if they are. I try my best not to be a bitter person, whether in real life or on these forums, but I can certainly understand why some are bitter. Imagine being continuously surrounded by people who are your almost exact opposite, and you can't tell anyone in your town (but they talk about it all the time), and you can't afford to move. It would be pretty maddening if not for this forum which is the only release some of us have. Just discussing it politely is enough release for me, but some seem to need to "blow off steam", which I don't necessarily approve of, but I can understand.

[Melvin.George]

Originally Posted by Lamplight

I think a lot of the anger you seem to pick up on is caused by the fact that many of us are constantly surrounded in our daily lives by only Christian fundamentalists. Some of us were raised by them, and some of us have probably experienced very few religious people in our lives who weren't rabid fundamentalists. If I'm around family they're all like this. When I'm at work everyone else is like this. When I'm shopping, eating, etc. most of the people I encounter are far-right fundamentalists, and it usually doesn't take long to find out if they are. I try my best not to be a bitter person, whether in real life or on these forums, but I can certainly understand why some are bitter. Imagine being continuously surrounded by people who are your almost exact opposite, and you can't tell anyone in your town (but they talk about it all the time), and you can't afford to move. It would be pretty maddening if not for this forum which is the only release some of us have. Just discussing it politely is enough release for me, but some seem to need to "blow off steam", which I don't necessarily approve of, but I can understand.

I love what you said. Kinda' wish I had said it myself. I'm in Tennessee and my maternal grandmother used to say to me, "Don't Do That...Old Scratch Will Get You!"

Old Scratch was her name for Satan. I should look back and thank her because her belief and the way she expressed herself was the main reason I began to research all religions while I was in my teens.

Recently I was at a birthday celebration for one of my grandchildren. We were in a nice restaurant and when the waiters had delivered our meals and we were ready to "break bread" there was this pregnant pause because they know I do not want to hear them speak to the invisible man in the sky. My three year old granddaughter was obviously upset when she saw everyone begin to eat. She started yelling, "I Wan To Pray To De Fadah!" My daugher-in-law took her from the table but when they returned my granddaughter was still sobbing.

My son married a very nice, attractive lady who is such a devout Presbyterian that each of their three children was baptized in a formal ceremony when they were six months old and all but the youngest is already attending a K-12 Christian school.

When I witness that kind of guilt feelings in a three year old...I know I'm right. There's no logic to causing an infant to begin to develop a lifestyle which will govern their every thought and action from the cradle to the grave.

My oldest daughter has a masters degree in religious counseling and is the president of the ministerial association in a town about 30 miles from me. It's a hard life when two thirds of your eight grandchildren are already so brainwashed that they can't even tolerate their granddad's wishes for a few hours a year.

[DaniMae1]

VPunk...You may not see it but you are a bit hostile yourself....

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by Lamplight

I think a lot of the anger you seem to pick up on is caused by the fact that many of us are constantly surrounded in our daily lives by only Christian fundamentalists. Some of us were raised by them, and some of us have probably experienced very few religious people in our lives who weren't rabid fundamentalists. If I'm around family they're all like this. When I'm at work everyone else is like this. When I'm shopping, eating, etc. most of the people I encounter are far-right fundamentalists, and it usually doesn't take long to find out if they are. I try my best not to be a bitter person, whether in real life or on these forums, but I can certainly understand why some are bitter. Imagine being continuously surrounded by people who are your almost exact opposite, and you can't tell anyone in your town (but they talk about it all the time), and you can't afford to move. It would be pretty maddening if not for this forum which is the only release some of us have. Just discussing it politely is enough release for me, but some seem to need to "blow off steam", which I don't necessarily approve of, but I can understand.

Being Catholic in the Bible Belt in the early 1980s wasn't much better. I was born in the land of Tony Alamo so I can sympathize with some of this. Still some of the hostility strikes me as fairly generalized to all theists, even ones who aren't conventionally religious. (If someone actually did tell me belief in a magical fairy was helpful to them I don't think I'd flip out about it the way some here do to any mention of God)