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Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Luke 12:49-53 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Okay, but are you saying that He wanted this divisiveness or just that He knew it was inevitable?
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.I love those verses. They are among some of my favorite in the entire New Testament. I'm not sure I interpret them quite the same as you do, though.
The nature of the ecclesia being what it is, such is inevitable, until we rise in uncorrupted bodies [maybe].
Well, it's apparently hard for the Roman Catholic Church to figure out. At any rate, I don't see that it matters much in the long run. They started out as one church and split into two churches.
Can we talk about the EO? I mean , this IS a thread about Catholicism only, as we keep getting reminded . Apparently the Internet will implode and CD will be destroyed if we stray from speaking only of Catholics here . Well, let's see.
Eastern Orthodox .
OK , so far so good .
Well then, it matters if , while one church strayed from the truth, the other does not and held fast to the original teachings . That would make your claim of a necessary reformation null and void .
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I already addressed this question once on this thread. The apostles that were chosen to fill the vacancies that took place among the original twelve may have been filled by individuals who had witnessed the Resurrection. But the notion that it was "the number one qualification of an Apostle" is simply an unrealistic one when you take into account that Paul says that prophets and apostles were to remain a part of the organizational structure of the church "till we all come into the unity of faith in Christ." Do you think we're there yet?
If you point was salient then we would see apostles in the second generation after the originals . But I don't recall any church leaders after the original apostles claiming the title of Apostle for themselves . So is it your opinion that the church strayed immediately upon the original apostles dying ?
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And if all of the current EO bishops can tie their authority to an apostle, it would seem as if that authority is deemed fairly important by the EO Church today. This would be true even if they seem to have lost sight of the fact that a bishop was the leader of a single congregation and was to submit to the authority of the apostles.
Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox .
OK, no implosion .
The EO do put stock in authority and lineage for that authority . They just hold that the title apostle ended with the originals and not an office to be assumed by others . And again, since the successors to the originals did not do so, there is no reason to assume others were meant to .
In the days of Moses leading the tribe of Hebrews in the desert. There was also a holy man in Canaan named Balaam. Moses did not know of Balaam. Balaam did not know of Moses. Both men worshipped God. Both men were the prophets of God. Both men operated God's power toward others. Both men had developed a reputation among other leaders as being a man of God.
One day as the Hebrews traveled about the land they came into the area where Balaam did his thing. The story is all recorded for all to read.
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Keep in mind, who and what Balaam was. His prophecies were from God, so he was not an evil man, nor did he worship some idol. His heart may have became corrupted, such is a common story among men. Even his neighboring kings knew and recognized that Balaam walked in the power of God.
I'm relatively sure that there is no single chapter and verse stating that "bishops were accountable to the Apostles." Ephesians 2:20 states that the Church was built "upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." It definitely wasn't built upon bishops. All of the apostles acts and epistles are directed to the various congregations existing at that time. They were instructional in nature. Bishops headed each of these congregations. There aren't any epistles in which the Church's bishops direct or instruct the Apostles or are free to supercede their directives.
Well then, it matters if , while one church strayed from the truth, the other does not and held fast to the original teachings . That would make your claim of a necessary reformation null and void .
Yes, if one of them held to the original teachings, that would be correct. But I believe that at least some of the doctrines taught by Jesus Christ had been lost long before the split between the RC and the EO ever took place.
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If you point was salient then we would see apostles in the second generation after the originals . But I don't recall any church leaders after the original apostles claiming the title of Apostle for themselves .
Yeah, well, it was probably kind of hard to keep things running the way the apostles wanted to while they were widely separated on their various missions and kind of trying to keep from being martyred. The fact that they did initially ordain replacements is enough evidence for me to believe that this is what they knew was expected of them. And then there's Paul's comment that I mentioned. The organizational structure of the Church was to remain as Jesus Christ had established it until all believers came into a unity of their faith. Furthermore, he was pretty explicit in describing what would happen without this organizational structure.
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So is it your opinion that the church strayed immediately upon the original apostles dying ?
It's my opinion that this is when it all started. I don't believe it took place overnight, though.
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The EO do put stock in authority and lineage for that authority . They just hold that the title apostle ended with the originals and not an office to be assumed by others .
Well, that doesn't sound like what you were saying before. If every EO bishop can trace his authority to an apostle, that must have required some pretty extensive record-keeping, record-keeping that would have been unnecessary for a church that didn't put much stock in authority.
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And again, since the successors to the originals did not do so, there is no reason to assume others were meant to .
Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here.
What I am getting at is that if the office of apostle was intended to continue past the original ones, some where some successor to an original would have assumed that title and proclaimed himself the next apostle . But none did . So either ever single solitary successor in leadership from the apostles completely misunderstood their instructions , along with every other church leader that could have reminded them that the Apostles taught that the successor was to take the title , or it was never meant to be a continuing office after the originals . Not one second generation church leader that learned from the original ones proclaimed himself an apostle . Why was that? Every single leader totally missed the boat ? All of them, across the board ? Or was it, more likely because not a one of them was taught that the office would continue after the original ones died ?
What I am getting at is that if the office of apostle was intended to continue past the original ones, some where some successor to an original would have assumed that title and proclaimed himself the next apostle . But none did .
As I already said, after Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles. So Matthias, Barnabas, Paul and James were not among the original twelve, but I believe they were truly apostles. I don't, on the other hand, believe that any of them simply "proclaimed himself the next apostle." I believe that the apostles as a group received revelation from God as to whom they should ordain to fill a vacancy.
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Or was it, more likely because not a one of them was taught that the office would continue after the original ones died ?
Not even remotely likely. Are you simply ignoring everything I've said. Paul explicitly stated that the office of apostle was to continue until all believers came into a unity of faith. I've said this three times now. How many more times do I need to say it? And why, if the office was to be discontinued after the original twelve died, were Matthias, Barnabas, Paul and James called?
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