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Instead I am curious to see how people determine their morality from...a non-believer standpoint.
My morality is based on two ideas: Honesty and do no harm.
It's not a perfect system (the two can contradict each other, such as when being brutally honest may cause distress), but as long as I am honest with myself, I have a clear view of reality and am able to cause as little harm as possible.
Quote:
If you allow your own inner conscious to be your moral compass and trust it to steer you to what is right then you are being led by a faulty compass.
Our inner conscience is the only compass we have. We cannot escape it. Even if you subscribe to doctrine, it is your own conscience that tells you to follow this doctrine.
Dont you see the contradiction in what you are saying? If society and man determines what is morally virtuous, and societies determine that slavery is moral then you can have your opinion that they made a wrong choice but by your definition that society determines morals - you would be wrong.
First, I agree that we are simply using slavery as an illustration. Nobody is actually trying to declare it to be a moral good.
We are getting to the hairsplitting stage here.
First, I do not believe in god, so from my point of view, there is no objective morality. It is ALL subjective. My first response to you is to simply say that you are arguing from an erroneous foundation.
Secondly, societies determining what is legal is different from determining what is moral. Everybody on this thread, myself included, is using language in a sloppy way not not making clear distinctions between legal, and moral.
Third point. I have given, several times, a method by which morality can be determined in as objective a manner as possible. Not completely objective. But not completely subjective. By balancing harm and benefit, this is a tool that can be used to make moral decisions. It does not work every time, it is subject to abuse, it can be wrong. But we live in an imperfect world, so our tools are similarly imperfect.
Fourth. Of course morality changes over time. We live in different societies, with different needs. If we lived in a world where famine were a constant fact of life, killing the old, infirm, nonproductive people would be morally good. That is not the case, so it is morally bad. As another example, in a world where women cannot work, there is no birth control, medical abortions are unheard of, and men will not support another's child, premarital sex would be immoral, for the consequences to the woman and child. Thankfully, this is not the case, so in our world premarital sex is a morally good thing (my point of view, but defensible.)
There are some things that will tend to be morally bad in most circumstances (slavery being one I think), but these things will depend on environment and society.
the topic is how you determine your morality. We were moving into what makes a Christian a Christian. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I sense a certain hostility in your posts to me and I dont know why.
I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I don't know you so hostility would be ludicrous. I am simply stating my feelings and reading back over my posts, I still feel that I did that in a very respectful way. No hostility here.
I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I don't know you so hostility would be ludicrous. I am simply stating my feelings and reading back over my posts, I still feel that I did that in a very respectful way. No hostility here.
It has been a long week and perhaps it is just me. No harm no foul.
This is an excellent question. I believe in treating others as you would want to be treated or do unto others .... I have lived this way for as long as I can remember. I believe it comes from a culmination of beliefs, life, and so forth.
I care about my fellow man. I care about all things living. I am saddened by tragedy, loss of life, illness, and suffering. We have so much to learn - sorry if I drifted a bit.
To me, morals are developed and refined in the conscience according to maturity, experience and evaluating one's own actions. For this reason I don't believe that morals can be very solid at a young age. (For this I look at myself at a younger age as a prime example). I was taught morals as if they were lists of ways to behave. Whenever I made an infraction against those morals I reasoned that I was breaking their morals, not mine, although I really didn't have any.
Learning morals, based upon the conscience, can be a sometimes painful and life-long process.
Being an aethiest, since many years I have considered myself to be amoral. Some of my morals will parallel those taught by religions, others not. I accept or reject morals based upon my conscience. In the area of sexual behavior I would most certainly clash with the morals taught by religions. I am not gay, but if others are, it doesn't bother me. Live and let live. But in my hetereosexual affairs I never considered morals for an instant, and believe (to this day) I did nothing wrong. Morals cannot always be standardized to fit everyone.
Another example is I don't believe in inflicting pain (either emotional or physical) or deceiving others if there is a chance for a personal gain. Have I done these things? Sure, years ago. I haven't physically hurt anyone, but have carelessly caused emotional pain. The afterthought of that was evaluated in my conscience to where I saw that my lack of consideration made someone suffer. From that point onward I have become more considerate.
I don't think that morals are something to be determined by numbers, such as large groups who decide what morals are. Because in such situations morals are rarely discussed or thought out, but merely handed down as rules to follow. Live this way or else! Consequently, people find ways to re-interpret, adjust, or just plain ignore such rules. That paves the way for double-standards. Unfortunately, I think the world, including religions, function on double-standards. All the more reason I prefer to be amoral.
God's morals? Well and fine, but I have the impression that God is more interested in loyalty to him and being praised, and not very concerned with how people treat (or mistreat) each other.
However, I find that some morals, such as Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Steal, should be as commonly accepted as gravity.
My morals have not yet been refined and need tweaking constantly, but I have a solid base, my conscience.
Of course, I'm not a sweet, pure being. I feel neither exalted or superior, I entertain my devilish thoughts now and then.
I wanted to branch off to another area here based on a post I made in one of the many debates about homosexuality. I DO NOT want to discuss homosexuality here as there are plenty of threads for that. Instead I am curious to see how people determine their morality from a Christian standpoint and a non-believer standpoint. Here are my thoughts to open the discussion.
If you allow your own inner conscious to be your moral compass and trust it to steer you to what is right then you are being led by a faulty compass. You can shift it up or down based on what you allow yourself to be subjected to. That is why it will never work to say that it feels right or natural so it must be ok.
I am working with a definition of morality that is rather simple; Does it work?
Where does that place me on the Christian vs. non-believer scale?
I am working with a definition of morality that is rather simple; Does it work?
Where does that place me on the Christian vs. non-believer scale?
Uhhh . . . care to elaborate any more than "does it work?"
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