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Just wish to add....it is only a small percentage of the Catholic clergy who are culpable for this grave moral evil; Most priests--some of them living saints who have given their lives to the poorest and most marginalised in the world--are innocent, yet the collective guilt of these heinous crimes has been shifted onto their shoulders to carry.
But it is ALL of the hierarchy that covered it up and moved them around to new and unsuspecting communities of victims.
But it is ALL of the hierarchy that covered it up and moved them around to new and unsuspecting communities of victims.
If you are going to make a claim like this, you had better be prepared to back it up.
1. How do you define "hierarchy" in this context?
2. Please provide a list of the names of all individuals who constitute that heirarchy.
Once I've had time to examine the list, I will get back to you if I have any questions about any of the specific individuals you have deemed guilty of a coverup of these heinous crimes against humanity.
I presume it will take you a while to compile this information. Feel free to DM it to me.
In fact, nevermind the past two thousand years. I can look past a lot of history. Hell, even America's own history is pretty violent and upsetting. The way we treated Native Americans, slaves, etc... Those are all things in the past, though. They are also things that nobody alive today had any real control over. We can go around saying 'sorry' for those things but it doesn't mean much because you, me and everyone else around didn't have much to do with it.
But, there's something Moderator cut: deleted in the Catholic Church. You can piously defend it for whatever reasons you prefer but you know as well as I do that serious reformation or complete destruction of the church needs to happen at this point in time. In today's world, the Catholic Church could actually be considered a child pedophilia ring. Their willingness to cover up, hide, and protect priests that raped and tortured children should make anyone's stomach squirm. You cannot simply lay blame to the priests who performed these ritualistic sexual acts as the core problem. Day after day we hear about how priests were transferred, how it took months for some priests to get moved, how therapy was started and within a few days another priest was reinstated to the same parish. The Catholic Church, the organization, has done everything under the sun to pin this as a "homosexual" problem and not a "pedophilia" problem. One spokesman, Bill Donohue, even said that because some of the boys had pubic hair, it was a homosexual problem - not a pedophilia problem. This is getting so incredulously ridiculous that I am beginning to wonder just how low the Catholic Church will stoop before it finally admits to having done something wrong. I don't expect it to anytime soon, though. It took them 300 years to admit the Earth revolved around the Sun.
But, that's not the only reason I dislike this Moderator cut: deleted institution. They have promoted the spread of AIDS in Africa by flat out lying to the most ignorant and poor of people by telling them that condoms do not prevent the spread of AIDS. In fact, I believe it was the Pope himself who took that lie even further and said that condoms actually help to promote the spread of AIDS! In some ways, you could almost consider that genocide by proxy.
And, I'm not done yet. Let's not forget Father Athanese Seromba who was tried and found guilty of genocide after killing more than 2,000 Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994. In and of itself, I would find this to be an isolated incident involving a few waywardly swayed individuals. Of course, that is until you realize that Father Seromba fled to the Vatican and was safehoused in Rome for five years before being tried. One must ask... What the hell was he doing in the Vatican for that length of time?! Then one must further ask... What about Theopister Mukakibibi, the nun also convicted of genocide? What was she doing? What about Bishop Augustin Misago? Or Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka? All of these people have either been convicted of genocide or are suspected to have committed some of the most heinous and depraved acts of crimes against humanity. They are all affiliated with the Catholic Church and there are more where that came from.
And then there are the grievous cries and analogies of "Antisemitism" being bellowed from some far and dark corner of the Vatican. I suppose you can interpret the language any way you want but the Catholic Church really has no right to even utter the word in any form of defense with what is currently going on behind their sacred walls of blood and money. For two thousand years they perpetuated antisemitism by blaming the Jews for killing Jesus. They may not have been the initial progenitors of hatred against the Jews but they most certainly promoted the idea for the last two thousand years. In fact, it wasn't until the early 1960's that they supposedly "outlawed" it from their Church. One must ask the question: Why wasn't there a single Nazi ex-communicated from the Church either before or after the atrocities of the Nazi Party were committed? I know people ex-communicated for getting a divorce - but being responsible for killing millions of Jews requisites nothing at all? One could largely even blame the Catholic Church for the pre-emptive hatred in Europe against the Jews which led to the logical pathway for the Germans to blindly follow Hitler. Without centuries of "Jews killed Jesus," and "Jews are evil," I wonder how willing the German people would have been to willingly give up their neighbors, friends and families to some of the most atrocious acts of evil ever perpetuated by mankind.
But, the Church feels its wrongly persecuted? I'm a bigot for feeling gleeful at what I hope is the beginning of the end? Negative. I am a person who finds gross acts of crimes against humanity sickening, deplorable, and disreputable. The Catholic Church can try to sugarcoat all of the things its done in this lifetime with cries of calamity and wrongdoing against it. Hell, they've even tried to blame the Jewish-American media when the first sex scandals broke. I wonder how that tactic is working in Europe right now? One cannot deny that the Church, from the top to the bottom, is behind some of the worst crimes against humanity. As I've said before:
If this were not a religious institution... If it were any other form of institution, people would be screaming and hollering louder than I for its demise. But, because it's religious, people like yourself swiftly act to protect and defend the wretched practices of such an awful and ancient crime-laden organization. Let's be realistic about something: It is the structure of the Church itself that lends itself to such problems. The Church will not relinquish its ancient stance on such garbage and the problems will continue to perpetuate themselves for years to come. Unless the Church is willing to tear itself down, to have a serious act of reformation, and not cover up its dirty laundry, I must say that I will happily watch and participate as the walls of the Vatican come crumbling down.
In fact, nevermind the past two thousand years. I can look past a lot of history. Hell, even America's own history is pretty violent and upsetting. The way we treated Native Americans, slaves, etc... Those are all things in the past, though. They are also things that nobody alive today had any real control over. We can go around saying 'sorry' for those things but it doesn't mean much because you, me and everyone else around didn't have much to do with it.
But, there's somethingModerator cut: orphaned in the Catholic Church. You can piously defend it for whatever reasons you prefer but you know as well as I do that serious reformation or complete destruction of the church needs to happen at this point in time. In today's world, the Catholic Church could actually be considered a child pedophilia ring. Their willingness to cover up, hide, and protect priests that raped and tortured children should make anyone's stomach squirm. You cannot simply lay blame to the priests who performed these ritualistic sexual acts as the core problem. Day after day we hear about how priests were transferred, how it took months for some priests to get moved, how therapy was started and within a few days another priest was reinstated to the same parish. The Catholic Church, the organization, has done everything under the sun to pin this as a "homosexual" problem and not a "pedophilia" problem. One spokesman, Bill Donohue, even said that because some of the boys had pubic hair, it was a homosexual problem - not a pedophilia problem. This is getting so incredulously ridiculous that I am beginning to wonder just how low the Catholic Church will stoop before it finally admits to having done something wrong. I don't expect it to anytime soon, though. It took them 300 years to admit the Earth revolved around the Sun.
But, that's not the only reason I dislike this Moderator cut: Orphaned institution. They have promoted the spread of AIDS in Africa by flat out lying to the most ignorant and poor of people by telling them that condoms do not prevent the spread of AIDS. In fact, I believe it was the Pope himself who took that lie even further and said that condoms actually help to promote the spread of AIDS! In some ways, you could almost consider that genocide by proxy.
And, I'm not done yet. Let's not forget Father Athanese Seromba who was tried and found guilty of genocide after killing more than 2,000 Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994. In and of itself, I would find this to be an isolated incident involving a few waywardly swayed individuals. Of course, that is until you realize that Father Seromba fled to the Vatican and was safehoused in Rome for five years before being tried. One must ask... What the hell was he doing in the Vatican for that length of time?! Then one must further ask... What about Theopister Mukakibibi, the nun also convicted of genocide? What was she doing? What about Bishop Augustin Misago? Or Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka? All of these people have either been convicted of genocide or are suspected to have committed some of the most heinous and depraved acts of crimes against humanity. They are all affiliated with the Catholic Church and there are more where that came from.
And then there are the grievous cries and analogies of "Antisemitism" being bellowed from some far and dark corner of the Vatican. I suppose you can interpret the language any way you want but the Catholic Church really has no right to even utter the word in any form of defense with what is currently going on behind their sacred walls of blood and money. For two thousand years they perpetuated antisemitism by blaming the Jews for killing Jesus. They may not have been the initial progenitors of hatred against the Jews but they most certainly promoted the idea for the last two thousand years. In fact, it wasn't until the early 1960's that they supposedly "outlawed" it from their Church. One must ask the question: Why wasn't there a single Nazi ex-communicated from the Church either before or after the atrocities of the Nazi Party were committed? I know people ex-communicated for getting a divorce - but being responsible for killing millions of Jews requisites nothing at all? One could largely even blame the Catholic Church for the pre-emptive hatred in Europe against the Jews which led to the logical pathway for the Germans to blindly follow Hitler. Without centuries of "Jews killed Jesus," and "Jews are evil," I wonder how willing the German people would have been to willingly give up their neighbors, friends and families to some of the most atrocious acts of evil ever perpetuated by mankind.
But, the Church feels its wrongly persecuted? I'm a bigot for feeling gleeful at what I hope is the beginning of the end? Negative. I am a person who finds gross acts of crimes against humanity sickening, deplorable, and disreputable. The Catholic Church can try to sugarcoat all of the things its done in this lifetime with cries of calamity and wrongdoing against it. Hell, they've even tried to blame the Jewish-American media when the first sex scandals broke. I wonder how that tactic is working in Europe right now? One cannot deny that the Church, from the top to the bottom, is behind some of the worst crimes against humanity. As I've said before:
If this were not a religious institution... If it were any other form of institution, people would be screaming and hollering louder than I for its demise. But, because it's religious, people like yourself swiftly act to protect and defend the wretched practices of such an awful and ancient crime-laden organization. Let's be realistic about something: It is the structure of the Church itself that lends itself to such problems. The Church will not relinquish its ancient stance on such garbage and the problems will continue to perpetuate themselves for years to come. Unless the Church is willing to tear itself down, to have a serious act of reformation, and not cover up its dirty laundry, I must say that I will happily watch and participate as the walls of the Vatican come crumbling down.
...
Of course, given the hatred of monotheism (and the Catholic Church in particular) that drives many who post at this forum, I have zero expectation that any of you will actually read the article in its entirity, or even try to understand the very specific point that was being made.
Oh victim, victim, victim...that's a tired old red herring. However, it does serve to point out the use of rhetorical devices to deflect attention from real issues. And this is exactly what the Vatican's preacher was doing on Good Friday.
As for the papal preacher's remarks, he was supposedly quoting an unnamed Jewish friend, and was clearly attempting to employ this individual's remarks to imply that the press coverage of the child raping scandal was being used in a blanket manner against all Catholics.
And that is a lie, whether the priest concocted the story, or whether in fact an unnamed Jewish friend did say what he attributed to him.
I have seen no press coverage whatsoever that has attempted anything like this. The press coverage I have seen (and it includes television and newspapers from the U.S., Great Britain, Ireland and Portugal) has all been focused on the fact that bishops concealed this problem for years and allowed these clerical rapists to commit serial crimes. In addition, vis a vis the present pope, he was prior to his election to the papacy twice in positions of authority where he should have been aware of and taken action in regard to cases of sexual molestation.
He did not, which seems unbelievable. And he has been defended as not knowing of these crimes, when in the two cases cited they most certainly should have been brought to his attention. If they truly were not it begs the question what in the hell this man and his staff thought was important enough for his attention if serial child raping was not!
The Vatican court preacher, citing his alleged Jewish friend's remarks, was attempting to give the impression that press coverage into the activities of individual clerics was an attack on the entire church and its members.
That is transparent mendacity: It has been nothig of the sort.
Quote:
So who is "low" in your estimation? The Jewish writer of the letter, the Catholic priest who quoted it, or both? Or perhaps by "these people" you mean "all Catholics?" Please clarify.
If you want to hear contempt and fury being unleashed against the Vatican court and the pope, you need only turn to the public reaction of Jews since this grotesque performance. I have not seen one comment from a Jewish public figure in Europe that has not been stunned by this man's crude use of the problem of anti-semitism in an attempt to deflect attention away from public scrutiny of the responsibility for large-scale child rape. The Jews I have spoken to personally are using words a great deal stronger than "low."
My own characterization of the papal preacher's remarks would be slimy.
Just wish to add....it is only a small percentage of the Catholic clergy who are culpable for this grave moral evil; Most priests--some of them living saints who have given their lives to the poorest and most marginalised in the world--are innocent, yet the collective guilt of these heinous crimes has been shifted onto their shoulders to carry.
It is you and the pope's preacher who are claiming that guilt for this child raping has been moved from the guilty few to a collective all. While there are undoubtedly some individuals who may believe that this criminal conduct is widesparead, I have seen no stories in the press or on television to have attempted to assert this.
I am an old person with numerous and long acqaintanceship with many priests and religious, and I have no doubts whatsoever that the vast majority of them if not living saints are at the least decent human beings. And these poor, trusting individuals must be bowed down with incredible sorrow.
A morally corrupt few in comparison have been able to go on longterm child molesting sprees. How and why this occurred is what is at issue. It is clear from investigations made public and from the statements of members of the episcopacy that for years concealment of these crimes and the protection of the church's public image were the focus of the concern in regard to these serial child rapers. Their victims received no help, and in some cases - as in Ireland - were intimidated into signing statements of secrecy. This is truly foul.
Even when the Vatican's governing congregation that has jurisdiction over such matters knew of these crimes it was glacially slow to act or did not act at all against the perpetrators.
There is no shifting of guilt from these rapists onto the innocent.
What is occuring now is the horrified realization that individual bishops and even the Vatican Congregation for Doctrine were guilty of concealing and protecting these criminals, and for this reason they are deeply, deeply guilty.
If you are going to make a claim like this, you had better be prepared to back it up.
1. How do you define "hierarchy" in this context?
2. Please provide a list of the names of all individuals who constitute that heirarchy.
Once I've had time to examine the list, I will get back to you if I have any questions about any of the specific individuals you have deemed guilty of a coverup of these heinous crimes against humanity.
I presume it will take you a while to compile this information. Feel free to DM it to me.
Do your own sleuthing or get a secretary to do your research for you. It takes a willful obliviousness to pretend that the entire hierarchy of the church, including all its ruling councils and highest officials, were not aware of such a longstanding problem. Human societies (especially closed and protective ones) know of such potential "threats" to their society that produce official cover-ups (to the public) and deals with families, payoffs, etc. over such long periods of time. The most evil of the reactions within this corrupt institution has been the constant shuffling and subjecting new communities to these perverts . . . . creating new victims of unsuspecting parishioners for decades if not longer!
I think its perfectly reasonable to feel that catholic clergy in general have been unfairly blamed. However, that has not happened, for the most part. The blame has fallen squarely on the leadership. Not for abuse, but for the cover-up.
Why is there such harsh criticism of Catholic leadership? Because they have set themselves up as moral paragons, and, in fact, a good number of catholic clergy are very moral people who do much good. The contrast between the devoted nun who teaches school or nurses the terminally ill vs some guy with an impressive sounding title who defends abuse is pretty sharp.
But, there's something Moderator cut: deleted in the Catholic Church. You can piously defend it for whatever reasons you prefer but you know as well as I do that serious reformation or complete destruction of the church needs to happen at this point in time. In today's world, the Catholic Church could actually be considered a child pedophilia ring.
And so could the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Boy Scouts, the Australian school system, the US school system, etc. People have a sad tendency to place loyalty "to their own" above what's right. That priests are lumpen people is disappointing and upsetting, but the Church has made efforts to reduce this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
But, that's not the only reason I dislike this Moderator cut: deleted institution. They have promoted the spread of AIDS in Africa by flat out lying to the most ignorant and poor of people by telling them that condoms do not prevent the spread of AIDS. In fact, I believe it was the Pope himself who took that lie even further and said that condoms actually help to promote the spread of AIDS! In some ways, you could almost consider that genocide by proxy.
Although that might sound sensible the reality is AIDS is often lower in the more Catholic countries of Africa. The Western-secular message of "condoms, condoms, condoms" seems to often fail to deal with the many other issues involved. There's also a tendency in it to think people have no will of their own when it comes to sex and are therefore unable to modify sexual behavior except in the most superficial way.
AIDS in Africa is due to a variety of things. The Catholic Church's efforts to encourage changes in sexual behavior is a positive in many cases. I believe one Catholic bishop in Uganda encouraged people to get tested and be honest about their HIV status. This is critically important as many in Africa don't do this and it's an important aspect of the spread of AIDS there. Condom or no sex with a HIV/AIDS patient is a risk. I do worry Catholics exaggerate the flaws of condoms, but it is true condoms are not magical and do have a fail-rate. Western secular thinking is that sexual liberation is so important that that should be the focus and that's dangerous. Botswana has among the worst AIDS rate and condom usage is plentiful. I think condoms are more useful than the Church acknowledges, and that if you are fornicating or committing sodomy it matters little sin-wise if you use condoms, but it is true there's more to it. Anyone who knows anything of the situation knows that.
I do think the Catholic Church should maybe do more in encouraging testing and educating women. As well as encouraging men to get their wang-doodle checked on occasion. (A part of AIDS in Africa concerns men with sores their having sex. I know "gross" but it is an issue) I don't like outright dishonesty on condoms. However the looking down on Catholic views as "genocide by proxy" is ridiculous hyperbole that fails to acknowledge the failures your side has also made on AIDS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
And, I'm not done yet. Let's not forget Father Athanese Seromba who was tried and found guilty of genocide after killing more than 2,000 Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994. In and of itself, I would find this to be an isolated incident involving a few waywardly swayed individuals. Of course, that is until you realize that Father Seromba fled to the Vatican and was safehoused in Rome for five years before being tried. One must ask... What the hell was he doing in the Vatican for that length of time?!
He was in Florence, Italy. Still the Vatican did support him. Possibly they didn't have much faith in the justice system of Rwanda. In any event people of various religions were involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
And then there are the grievous cries and analogies of "Antisemitism" being bellowed from some far and dark corner of the Vatican. I suppose you can interpret the language any way you want but the Catholic Church really has no right to even utter the word in any form of defense with what is currently going on behind their sacred walls of blood and money. For two thousand years they perpetuated antisemitism by blaming the Jews for killing Jesus. They may not have been the initial progenitors of hatred against the Jews but they most certainly promoted the idea for the last two thousand years. In fact, it wasn't until the early 1960's that they supposedly "outlawed" it from their Church. One must ask the question: Why wasn't there a single Nazi ex-communicated from the Church either before or after the atrocities of the Nazi Party were committed?
First I don't think you understand excommunication.
"It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness. It necessarily, therefore, contemplates the future, either to prevent the recurrence of certain culpable acts that have grievous external consequences, or, more especially, to induce the delinquent to satisfy the obligations incurred by his offence."
So excommunicating say Hitler, who was not a practicing Catholic and even organized the Protestant Reich Church, would be in essence pointless.
Second I would like to see your evidence that a Nazi was never excommunicated. In any event it's false. The Church deemed the SS pagan and Leon Degrelle of the SS was excommunicated for attacking a priest. Unlike other Nazis he had been a practicing Catholic, had deemed his pro-Nazi Belgian party Catholic, so maybe they hoped it'd have effect. Because Nazis had little support in the Catholic regions of Germany until they had total control. The encyclical Mitt Brenender Sorge was an example of criticism of Nazism. You could also look up the Archbishop Johannes de Jong and Bernard Lichtman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
But, the Church feels its wrongly persecuted? I'm a bigot for feeling gleeful at what I hope is the beginning of the end?
Yes because you are taking only selected elements of its history, added with legend or gossip, to paint it in a purely negative light. That's kind of what bigotry is to an extent.
I could easily make most any organization look purely bad if I so desired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
If this were not a religious institution... If it were any other form of institution, people would be screaming and hollering louder than I for its demise.
Doubtful. People accept the existence of newer things with highly negative histories. Ford was a blatant Anti-Semite who spied on his workers and I believe had some union guys killed. They may go to a Unocal type station to power those cars and Unocal had people enslaved in Burma. However I doubt Ford or Unocal do as much to help the poorest as the Catholic Church or that you can prove it. When the report on public school abuse came out around 2004 people were mostly uninterested.
People often suck and human institutions often do flawed or even criminal things. It's possible if this were not a religious institution people wouldn't expect better of it and therefore only crusading liberal types would care for very long. People are often very willing to care about things only if it directly effects them and most Catholics have likely not even known an abusive priest or a bishop who protected one. (And not all bishops did protect them)
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